Absurd REALLY stupid stories in the bible.

Why was Sodom destroyed?

" Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it. "

Since what He saw is connected with the two angels going down as men into Sodom, we have to take chapter 19 as what God saw which manifested the "abominations" committed.

Other most explicit passages on why Sodom and Gomorrah were judged should also be considered.

Genesis 18:20,21 - the cry of rebellion rising up against God.
Jude 7 - going after strange flesh (strange in that it was of the same sex).
2 Peter 2:6 - desiring to live ungodly.

As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters. Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good. (Ezekiel 16:48-50 KJV)

There is no doubt that deeper root causes like unthankfullness, ungratefulness, idleness, selfishness eventually gave rise to the "haughtiness" which manifested its pride in rampant homosexuality.

In Genesis 18:20,21 God said " The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, how great it is; and their sin, how very heavy it is !

I shall go down and see whether they have done altogether according to its outcry, which has come to Me; and if not, I will know."

The next chapter 19 describes what was going on there in Sodom and Gomorrah. You should connect chapter 19 with the cry of insubordination rising up before God. Chapter 19 shows the proof that their actions matched their cry against God.

Now that additional root sins led the downward slide to this is not surprising. In the fall of the Roman Empire idleness, indulgence, and selfishness also went before wild orgies.

" ... this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it. (Ezekiel 16:48-50 NASB)

The reasons for Sodom's demise are in the bible

You cannot use this verse to say that the things seen in chapter 19 had nothing to do with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The opposite is true.

Originally posted by kd2acz
Why was Sodom destroyed?
As I live, saith the Lord God, Sodom thy sister hath not done, she nor her daughters, as thou hast done, thou and thy daughters. Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they wer ...[text shortened]... hem away as I saw good. (Ezekiel 16:48-50 KJV)
The reasons for Sodom's demise are in the bible

Hmmm... Why was Sodom destroyed ?
I think the real question is why did your god consent to the many mass murderers who killed millions in the 20th century ? Clearly these actions surpassed what went on in Sodom. Does your god endorse mass murder ?

Originally posted by caissad4
Hmmm... Why was Sodom destroyed ?
I think the real question is why did your god consent to the many mass murderers who killed millions in the 20th century ? Clearly these actions surpassed what went on in Sodom. Does your god endorse mass murder ?

Or, as a follower of this god, do you endorse mass murder ?

Originally posted by sonhouse
I think the bible belittles people in general when it makes up stories that are patently BS. Think about it. Can you see some kind of thinking compassionate being killing most of the animals on the planet to get at a bunch of bad humans? It rankles me to the core that such BS would be spread out as if it were coming from a god. Those are just a few of the m ...[text shortened]... gs when you accept the faith as your religion. Why? Why accept things that are totally false?

the bible belittles people in general when it makes up stories that are patently BS.

indirectly belittles people. and only those that choose to believe it, despite the bs being irrelevant to judaism or christianity. it also doesn't justify you using this debating tactic. you want to communicate with people, you do it in a civilized manner. those that want to and can listen will. mocking will only alienate these people. when you are being abnoxious in a debate, most people will take the opposite side just to put as much distance between you and themselves as possible.


How can otherwise intelligent people fall for such crap?
most don't. most realize that christianity or judaism doesn't need the flood story. in fact, it is hurt by it if taken literally. you use fundies to make your stance look better. just because the fundies are the most outspoken theists, doesn't mean they are not an endangered species and will vanish eventually.


Do YOU actually believe these fairy tales? Why would a real god base a religion on such clear lies?
i don't and god doesn't in fact base christianity on "such clear lies". christians don't pray to noah, saviour and father to mankind. not even fundies pay attention to noah except to defend a god that didn't ask to be defended in the evolution and old earth issues.


You give up the right to even question such things when you accept the faith as your religion.
there are many christians, myself included, that do in fact question everything. i don't think a global flood ever occured because there is clear evidence the notion is impossible. i question the need to keep a woman subservient. i question the book of revelations and its relevance.


the thing is, all outspoken atheists must rely on the fundies to make their case against religion. moderate religion is boring and renders you without a case. the facts are, people are quite happy believing in a higher power. they lead happy lives. if you take away the fundamentalism, atheism is in no way superior to theism.

Originally posted by sonship

Why was Sodom destroyed?

[b]" Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it. "

Since what He saw is connected with the two angels going down as men into Sodom, we have to take chapter 19 as what God saw which manifested the "abominations" committed.

Other most ex ...[text shortened]... 19 had nothing to do with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The opposite is true.[/b]

i think you are missing the point, which is how is it even possible for an entire city to become homosexual rapists? its not like being gay is a fashion or a hobby or that rape is the next natural step after becoming gay. also the comments about 'idleness' do not make sense. we are talking about one of the hardest times to be alive in history. people couldnt afford to be idle, they would starve. calling them 'idle' is also rather odd considering they also had an 'abundance of food' i dont think anywhere in the middle east has ever had an abundance of food no matter how wealthy, especially if they were idle.

as for god, look at all the things they are accused of. do any of them seem worthy of death and destruction? if a society can turn from good to bad then it can be turned back the other way.

I think the real question is why did your god consent to the many mass murderers who killed millions in the 20th century ? Clearly these actions surpassed what went on in Sodom. Does your god endorse mass murder ?

If all mankind is to be judged according to deeds why do you assume God gives "consent" to crimes ?

The closing scenes of the Bible include a final last judgment of all the dead in Revelation 20. It says that books are opened. And the deeds of all the dead are judged.

And another book is opened called "the book of life" . All names of those not recorded in the "book of life" perish in eternal punishment.

Now, the books contain all the deeds and works of those judged. It does not appear to me that they are all deeds endorsed or consented to by God at all.

It makes sense that God would set aside examples to influence the consideration of peoples afterwards about their deeds, whether to do them or not. We are told that God set Sodom and Gomorrah as an example.

It makes sense that some 20th century atrocities were done in disregard to many warnings in biblical examples and in disregard of God created human conscience.

Where do you get your "God consented to it" concept?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
the bible belittles people in general when it makes up stories that are patently BS.

indirectly belittles people. and only those that choose to believe it, despite the bs being irrelevant to judaism or christianity. it also doesn't justify you using this debating tactic. you want to communicate with people, you do it in a civilized manner. those th ...[text shortened]... lives. if you take away the fundamentalism, atheism is in no way superior to theism.

That is a valid point about atheists Vs fundies. They are both at the extreme end of the religious spectrum and so would have the most to fight about. I myself do not count myself as an atheist, recognizing the fact it is an extremely large universe and maybe universes and we are in no position to make a judgement on such beings, they could be out there, maybe not. That is the stance of the agnostic which suits me fine. However, I certainly can rail against the bible god being what it is alleged in the bible.

How can supposedly intelligent people get sucked into such clearly false religions? It is beyond my ken. Personally I think if there are god(s) out there, we are perhaps at best considered an experiment that will play itself out from beginning to end with no intervention by said god(s). Just like the dinosaurs, Earth and the solar system conspired to knock them out of the picture, just like the other mass extinctions. There can be the argument some god or other did that deliberately to give room for the rise of mammals who were forever the size of shrews back in the days of dinosaurs but it could just as easily be in the realm of co-incidence, a few hundred volcano's coupled with that asteroid that hit in Yucatan just as the result of natural forces at work, you can see volcanism on the moon Io right now, you can see asteroids hitting Jupiter TWICE in our lifetimes so it is unlikely a god decided it was time for an asteroid to hit Jupiter, especially since there isn't much of a surface to wreck, it probably didn't make it more than a few hundred miles into Jove's atmosphere before it was rendered to dust. So it seems to me the god argument is just one more strawman.

It also seems clear the entire edifice of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam is all based on outright lies, cleverly designed by men to control men. How could it be otherwise? It is full of lies from word one to word last.

Moderate religious folk are all well and good but why does doing good have to be kick started by a religion? Starving folk need food and if a religious person gives it to them, the motivation is to get higher on the religious totem pole, not that they really give a rats ass about starvation. Mother Teresa said as much in an interview, she does good to better her chances of heaven and to further the church.

So why can't they just help the poor because they need it and for that reason alone rather than trying to insert their dogma as a precondition of said help?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
i think you are missing the point, which is how is it even possible for an entire city to become homosexual rapists? its not like being gay is a fashion or a hobby or that rape is the next natural step after becoming gay. also the comments about 'idleness' do not make sense. we are talking about one of the hardest times to be alive in history. people co truction? if a society can turn from good to bad then it can be turned back the other way.

i think you are missing the point, which is how is it even possible for an entire city to become homosexual rapists?

I think this objection is saying "I just don't believe that things could get that far out of hand."

This may be the point of the history, that things did. For sure the only homosexuals were not in those cities. Those became an example because the degree of corruption became so extensive.

What I hear you saying is similar to objections concerning Noah's society or Canaan's culture. "Things could not go that far." I think the warning is that things actually DID go that far in those centers.

its not like being gay is a fashion or a hobby or that rape is the next natural step after becoming gay. also the comments about 'idleness' do not make sense.

I think the idleness does make sense. You see there is in all people a thirst for enjoyment. The deepest longing is a longing for God.

Now when some very materially satisfied people sense that they STILL are not completely happy in spite of their things, they may turn to all kinds of wickedness in a desperate search to fulfill themselves. They crave to satisfy that which only a relationship with God could provide.

The idleness can then lead to seeking out more and more sinful pastimes.

we are talking about one of the hardest times to be alive in history. people couldnt afford to be idle, they would starve. calling them 'idle' is also rather odd considering they also had an 'abundance of food' i dont think anywhere in the middle east has ever had an abundance of food no matter how wealthy, especially if they were idle.

The situation is probably like today. There is a TV show which focuses on the crimes of the rich and privileged. And these can influence less affluent to follow in their lifestyles.

Now I agree that rape is not necessarily the next step to all gay people.
In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah it must have been.

as for god, look at all the things they are accused of. do any of them seem worthy of death and destruction? if a society can turn from good to bad then it can be turned back the other way.

Ninevah in the book of Jonah apparently turned back the other way, was spared judging (to the disappointment of the prophet). And they had a whole Old Testament book dedicated to their example and to God's reluctance to want to judge them at all.

Yes, repentence does happen, individually and collectively.

Originally posted by sonship

Why was Sodom destroyed?

" Thus they were haug ...(edit)... an Empire idleness, indulgence, and selfishness also went before wild orgies.

" ... this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and c in ...[text shortened]... ter 19 had nothing to do with the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. The opposite is true.

I did not imply that the destruction of Sodom had nothing to do with what's in Genesis 19 (I am assuming your are referring to when then men of the town came for the angels). I think if you read the chapter critically, you will see there are no reasons even given as to why the city is being destroyed; only confirmation of some things. I was merely pointing out that there was more reasons than the sexual immorality that Sodom was destroyed. The things in Genesis 19 to which your are referencing falls under 'abomination, Ezekiel 16:48-50.

Originally posted by caissad4
Hmmm... Why was Sodom destroyed ?
I think the real question is why did your god consent to the many mass murderers who killed millions in the 20th century ? Clearly these actions surpassed what went on in Sodom. Does your god endorse mass murder ?

The difference between what happened in Sodom and what has happened in the 20th century is plain to see. Sodom was destroyed by (2) angels, the 'mass murders' that you refer to were done by man.

Revelation 21:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Based on Revelation 21:8, God does not endorse murder.

Originally posted by kd2acz
The difference between what happened in Sodom and what has happened in the 20th century is plain to see. Sodom was destroyed by (2) angels, the 'mass murders' that you refer to were done by man.

Revelation 21:8
King James Version (KJV)

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and [b]murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, ...[text shortened]... rimstone: which is the second death.

Based on Revelation 21:8, God does not endorse murder.[/b]

"God does not endorse murder."


unless he's doing it.

Originally posted by caissad4
Or, as a follower of this god, do you endorse mass murder ?

No, of course not.

I did not imply that the destruction of Sodom had nothing to do with what's in Genesis 19

I hesitated to mention that in case that was not your point. I apologize. Reactionary I guess. Assuming too much I guess.

(I am assuming your are referring to when then men of the town came for the angels).

They thought they were men. They appeared to everyone as typical men.

I think if you read the chapter critically, you will see there are no reasons even given as to why the city is being destroyed;

I would not put it that way. I would say that the reason God had was ALREADY in God's intention. What happened in chapter 19 seems just to justify what God already intended to do. That is what a I think a careful reading shows.

When the angels [men] went down into Lot's house they already seem to know what they were going to do according to God's plan. The events of chapter 19 just seem to confirm that the need was legitimate.

God told Abraham beforehand, most likely, because He needed someone to intercede and pray for those who should be spared. I won't elaborate on that now.

only confirmation of some things. I was merely pointing out that there was more reasons than the sexual immorality that Sodom was destroyed. The things in Genesis 19 to which your are referencing falls under 'abomination, Ezekiel 16:48-50.

Okay. I agree with the importance of referring to Ezekiel 16:48-50. I think it is also helpful to remember that men lying with men sexually was explicitly "abomination" in the law of Moses (which was officially given afterwards at Sinai but probably had some influence beforehand for all we know).

"You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination." (Lev. 18:22)

Now something I have never been quite able to figure out is WHY Lot offered his daughters to the raping mob. Maybe, just maybe he knew they were so bent on the unnatural that they would not be interested in the females. But I really do not know.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
"God does not endorse murder."


unless he's doing it.

"God does not endorse murder."


unless he's doing it.

Here I have to consider. Does the One who gives life by His authority also have the right to take life ?

Your quip suggests that the Authority to bestow life does not have the authority to take it away.

I question that. At this point I think that if anyone has authority to remove the life He has bestowed, it is God.

Originally posted by sonship

"God does not endorse murder."


unless he's doing it.

Here I have to consider. Does the One who gives life by His authority also have the right to take life ?

Your quip suggests that the Authority to bestow life does not have the authority to take it away.

I question that. At this point I think that if [b]anyone has authority to remove the life He has bestowed, it is God.[/b]

The obvious fallacy there being the part "The One who gives life'', that is just an assumption on your part, not reality.

And I see it as a morality issue anyway, where a god like you think there is, a being of infinite power and wisdom would not do a mass murder. For instance, in the Noah fantasy, your god murders thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of humans and literally billions of animals.

Do you think a moral god would even CONSIDER such a heinous act? The answer is OBVIOUSLY NO.

The whole point of that being a god would NEVER do that but men certainly can and do murder by the millions. That fact is a good indication to me of the contrived nature of the bible, that is to say, a religion based on stories made up by men to control men and build a political religious power base pure and simple, with no input from ANY kind of god. Just creative writers bent on controlling unruly humans who probably NEEDED controlling.