1. Cape Town
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    20 Nov '08 11:10
    I have noticed a tendency amongst most of those who do not believe in evolution to promote as fact a large number of claims which I am fairly sure they either know are falsehoods or simply do not know the validity of. I also notice that even when they have been shown that they are clearly wrong about some of their claims, they will often not admit it, or if they do will still refuse to question any of the other claims they hold.

    I often wonder to what extent they know they do the above and how they reconcile such behavior with the claim to being Christian.

    For example robbie carrobie recently had this to say about evolution:

    "its nothing more than a hypothesis, cannot be proven, is full of contradiction and has no basis in reason nor can it claim to be scientific, and the evidence against it is overwhelming to say the least, see the fossil record, see experiments with mutations, see attempts to create amino acids, see the so called transmigration of species, see the complexity of dna, see mathematical probability etc etc. so i do not buy it my friend, no siree!"

    Now the above is rather vague, but I am sure that if he expanded on each of his claims a little it would be relatively trivial to show that at least one of them is a falsehood. Yet I sincerely doubt he will ever admit to it, yet he has claimed elsewhere that he follows Jesus' teachings.
  2. weedhopper
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    20 Nov '08 12:311 edit
    I think that one isn't guilty of the sin of telling falsehood (or lie) if he does not know it's a falsehood. If one believes soomething for their entire life, shifting paradigms is difficult if not impossible.
    Now, if irrefutable proof from 100% of all sources is shown, and he didn't stop perpetuating the falsehood, I'd agree with you.
    He believes evolution is false doctrine; many others do not agree.

    Fortunately, Jesus didn't say that we were saved by grace through faith "and perfevt, correct doctrine." 😀
  3. Cape Town
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    20 Nov '08 13:28
    Originally posted by PinkFloyd
    I think that one isn't guilty of the sin of telling falsehood (or lie) if he does not know it's a falsehood. If one believes soomething for their entire life, shifting paradigms is difficult if not impossible.
    Now, if irrefutable proof from 100% of all sources is shown, and he didn't stop perpetuating the falsehood, I'd agree with you.
    He believes evolution is false doctrine; many others do not agree.
    I have no objections whatsoever to someone who believes evolution is false doctrine. My objection is when that someone tries to support an argument to that effect with false claims, which he either knows are false or strongly suspects are false but chooses to ignore his suspicions. To be fair I make the same objections when I notice sonhouse bashing Islam with false or inaccurate claims. One difference though is that sonhouse does not claim to be Christian.

    Fortunately, Jesus didn't say that we were saved by grace through faith "and perfevt, correct doctrine." 😀
    If your actions are based on whether or not you will be saved, then you missed Jesus' message by a long shot.
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    20 Nov '08 16:39
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have noticed a tendency amongst most of those who do not believe in evolution to promote as fact a large number of claims which I am fairly sure they either know are falsehoods or simply do not know the validity of. I also notice that even when they have been shown that they are clearly wrong about some of their claims, they will often not admit it, or ...[text shortened]... oubt he will ever admit to it, yet he has claimed elsewhere that he follows Jesus' teachings.
    Being a follower of Jesus isn't contingent on whether one is right or wrong about science, or whether or not one has all the facts about everything that may be true or false.

    One is a Christian when one has trusted in Christ, and what He did on the cross for the forgivness of sins.

    In my experience in this forum, I find debating about evolution to be a tangent which leads to nowhere.

    The issue is whether all that exists came into being had it's origine in a creator or it just happened. Science, as far as I can tell, cannot say where everything came from. On the otherhand, faith tells us that God created everything.

    As of right now I can't explain why I believe God created everything, but I know He did.
  5. Account suspended
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    20 Nov '08 16:552 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have noticed a tendency amongst most of those who do not believe in evolution to promote as fact a large number of claims which I am fairly sure they either know are falsehoods or simply do not know the validity of. I also notice that even when they have been shown that they are clearly wrong about some of their claims, they will often not admit it, or oubt he will ever admit to it, yet he has claimed elsewhere that he follows Jesus' teachings.
    lol, there is nothing vague about anything that i listed, how can I put it more clearly than, i am not buying it, pick anyone of those claims, anyone i say and it can be shown, with references that each and every one of them can be validated! as i have argued in the past, evolution is responsible for the most inhumane atrocities, has led people on a false path away from spirituality into a materialistic abyss and has led to more ignorance than even the meanest of religions did in the middle ages, just ask the average guy in the street how much he knows about evolution and you will find your answer, and to the contrary, i generally find that i know more about this hypothesis than those who advocate it, its not a boast, i just had to make sure for myself what i always suspected, that it was a fallacy !, and in the course of events have heard many sides of the argument, so please enough of this nonsense and hypothetical scenarios about admitting this, or admitting that, with no basis in reality other than your imagination, let us examine the science, the facts and let the forum decide for itself, i suggest we begin with the fossil record, shall we? and if it is such a trivial matter, then come ahead, bring it on you bad ol putty cat you!
  6. Standard memberPalynka
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    20 Nov '08 17:00
    Originally posted by josephw
    Being a follower of Jesus isn't contingent on whether one is right or wrong about science, or whether or not one has all the facts about everything that may be true or false.

    One is a Christian when one has trusted in Christ, and what He did on the cross for the forgivness of sins.

    In my experience in this forum, I find debating about evolution to be a ...[text shortened]... .

    As of right now I can't explain why I believe God created everything, but I know He did.
    So you agree that accepting evolution (as part of a mechanism of God's creation) is not incompatible with being a Christian?
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    20 Nov '08 17:072 edits
    Originally posted by Palynka
    So you agree that accepting evolution (as part of a mechanism of God's creation) is not incompatible with being a Christian?
    if i may impose and answer this question, not only is it incompatible but it is diametrically opposite to what Christ believed and taught, the reference for your perusal if i may,

    'And Pharisees came up to him, intent on tempting him and saying: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of ground?”  In reply he said: “Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together let no man put apart.” - Matthew 19 verse 3

    as is clearly shown by the reference Christ is quoting from the book of genesis (genesis chapter 5 v 2 to be precise), which he not only believed but upheld its integrity in the face of opposition, and taught others to do the same also, therefore it is inconceivable that a Christian should apostatize and turn away from what Christ himself taught! advocating evolution and being a christian are therefore completely incompatible!
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    20 Nov '08 17:40
    Originally posted by Palynka
    So you agree that accepting evolution (as part of a mechanism of God's creation) is not incompatible with being a Christian?
    No. I don't believe in evolution. I think it is false science.

    Evolution has no basis in fact. It is only science fantasy. Wishfull thinking by those that block out God and hope they never meet Him.
  9. Standard memberPalynka
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    20 Nov '08 17:55
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    if i may impose and answer this question, not only is it incompatible but it is diametrically opposite to what Christ believed and taught, the reference for your perusal if i may,

    'And Pharisees came up to him, intent on tempting him and saying: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of ground?”  In reply he said: “Did YOU not ...[text shortened]... mself taught! advocating evolution and being a christian are therefore completely incompatible!
    Err... That doesn't mean that man and woman were necessarily created without recourse to evolution. 😵
  10. Cape Town
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    20 Nov '08 17:57
    Originally posted by josephw
    Being a follower of Jesus isn't contingent on whether one is right or wrong about science, or whether or not one has all the facts about everything that may be true or false.
    So would you agree with me that if a person deliberately:
    1. lies
    2. promotes what he knows to be untruths
    3. promotes 'facts' that he personally does not know the validity of or has good reason to doubt
    in order to justify his personal belief that evolution did not take place, is not acting in a Christian manner?
  11. Cape Town
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    20 Nov '08 18:00
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    lol, there is nothing vague about anything that i listed, how can I put it more clearly than, [b]i am not buying it, pick anyone of those claims, anyone i say and it can be shown, with references that each and every one of them can be validated![/b]
    If we make a list of your claims and I prove one to be false, will you then admit that you were mistaken and also show more skepticism to your other claims? Or will you be totally unfazed and simply repeat the falsehood two threads later?
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    20 Nov '08 18:121 edit
    Originally posted by Palynka
    Err... That doesn't mean that man and woman were necessarily created without recourse to evolution. 😵
    no that's correct my learned friend, but it does state unequivocally Christs and thus the Christian view! the mere fact that they were created i think is rather telling don't you, after all there is no inference whatsoever to a merely materialistic view of the origins of humans, is there?
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    20 Nov '08 18:171 edit
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    If we make a list of your claims and I prove one to be false, will you then admit that you were mistaken and also show more skepticism to your other claims? Or will you be totally unfazed and simply repeat the falsehood two threads later?
    look i am a human being, i make mistakes, if i did not then i would be world chess champion, i have no problem admitting i am wrong, it is after all inevitable, however why would i regard any of the claims i made sceptically just because you happen to have a different view, its absurd, and please be careful with your use of the word falsehood, for it is bordering on sensationalistic journalism in a vain effort to bolster your claim, where no valid evidence exists, but hey after all you are just a poor atheist and need to grasp at something! yes you are probably correct, i will be totally unfazed
  14. Account suspended
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    20 Nov '08 18:531 edit
    where are you?, away searching the net for some speculative evidence to support your assertion, come back and fight like a man, or a mammal, or a bird or a reptile or an amphibian or a fish or whatever you are or perhaps you are searching for that elusive missing link? you would think that after 100 million extant fossils you would give up, after all the fossil evidence that suggests we evolved could practically fit on a coffee table, now that is scant indeed!
  15. Standard memberKellyJay
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    20 Nov '08 18:56
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I have noticed a tendency amongst most of those who do not believe in evolution to promote as fact a large number of claims which I am fairly sure they either know are falsehoods or simply do not know the validity of. I also notice that even when they have been shown that they are clearly wrong about some of their claims, they will often not admit it, or ...[text shortened]... oubt he will ever admit to it, yet he has claimed elsewhere that he follows Jesus' teachings.
    It isn't vague, evolution can be vague as soon as you start putting
    specific claims to it, it can be either shown true or false. The trouble
    is that a small win in one area seems to suggest to the believers in
    it that the whole is true, when that shouldn't be the case.
    Kelly
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