Anti trinity texts

Originally posted by sonship
The Word became flesh.

That has to mean the God became something that is a part of the creation of God. Unless we hold that [b]"flesh" is eternal as God was.

So Christ is the Creator as well as the creature in that He became a man.
Unless we hold that God did not create man in contradiction to Genesis 1:26,27 .

Which do you thin ...[text shortened]... mething created by God the Creator ?

3.) Man is not something created by God the Creator ?[/b]

You'll have to go back and read the exchange between robbie and I to get an understanding of the context of our disagreement. robbie holds that Jesus is a created being. But as you and I and all other Spirit filled believers know Jesus is the creator.

But robbie doesn't know that, yet, hopefully he will someday.

In the meantime I would pray that you lose that siege mentality. We're on the same team after all. Aren't we?

And just to let you know, I am cognizant of that fact that God actually became a man,

but that doesn't mean He created Himself. It is a startling thing to imagine that the creator would become like one of us just so that we could in turn become like Him.

•Christ, the only begotten Son of God (John 1:18; 3:16), even God Himself (John 1:1), became a genuine man through incarnation (John 1:14), having both the divine and human natures (Rom. 9:5; 1 Tim. 2:5), the two natures being combined in one person and being preserved distinctly without confusion or change and without forming a third nature;

5. Christ Is a Creature

Man is a creature (Gen. 1:27; Acts 17:26). Since Christ is man, surely He is also a creature. This is revealed in the following two verses.

Colossians 1:15 says the Son is “Firstborn of all creation.” This tells us in plain words that Christ is created. He is the Firstborn of the creation, the First of all creatures.

In Revelation 3:14 Christ calls Himself “the beginning of the creation of God.” This also tells us He is created, the chief of the creation, the first One of all creatures.

In some translations, the above two passages do not match the meaning in the original Greek text (the Chinese Version is an example of this). Some do not understand these two passages properly; hence, they deny that Christ is created. However numerous authoritative versions such as the King James Version, American Standard Version, Revised Standard Version, New American Standard Bible, Amplified New Testament, Interlinear Greek-English New Testament, Conybeare’s Translation, Wuest’s, Darby’s New Translation, Concordant Version, and the Berkeley Version translate Colossians 1:15 either: “the firstborn of every creature,” or “the firstborn of all creation.” According to the original text, this translation is correct. Based on the proper translation, “the firstborn of all creation,” in 1934 Brother Watchman Nee delivered the following word: “In creation the Son is the Firstborn of all creation (Col. 1:15), and the beginning of the creation of God (Rev. 3:14). According to His eternal plan and before the foundation of the world, God ordained that the Son become flesh and accomplish redemption (1 Pet. 1:20). In God’s plan the Son was the first in creation” (The Collected Works of Watchman Nee, Vol. 11, p. 734).

“Firstborn” in Greek is prototokos. Proto means the first one or the beginning; tokos means born, produced. Hence, prototokos means the first one born, the one produced in the beginning; it can thus be translated “the firstborn.” The New Testament uses this word six times in referring to Christ. It says: He was the “firstborn son” of Mary (Luke 2:7); He is the “firstborn among many brothers” (Rom. 8:29); He is the “firstborn of all creation” (Col. 1:15); He is the “firstborn from among the dead” (Col. 1:18); He is the “Firstborn” of God (Heb. 1:6); and He is the “Firstborn of the dead” (Rev. 1:5). Although the above six references use different terms, all the terms refer to Christ being the Firstborn One. That Christ is “the firstborn of all creation” means He is the first One, the chief of all creation. This absolutely does not mean that He is before all creation and is therefore not included in all creation.

Colossians 1:15-18 says twice that the Lord is the Firstborn. In verse 15 it says the Lord is the “firstborn of all creation”; in verse 18 it says He is the “firstborn from among the dead.” “The firstborn from the dead” means the Lord is the first One among the resurrected. “The firstborn of all creation” means He is the first One among the created. This means that all in all, whether among the created ones or resurrected ones, the Lord is the Firstborn, the Beginning, and occupies the first place.

There are two great categories of things in the universe: the created and the resurrected. In this passage, from the second half of verse 15 through verse 17, it speaks of the first category, including all creation, among whom the Lord is the Firstborn, the first One. Verse 18 is concerned with the second category, including the church, among whom also the Lord is the Firstborn, the first One. In both categories the Lord is the Firstborn, the first One. This passage proves that in all things He is the Firstborn, and He has the preeminence. Whether among the created or the resurrected, He is the Firstborn, He is the Head; therefore, He is above all and has the preeminence in all things. The central thought of this passage is that Christ has the preeminence in all things. Unless He is the Firstborn of all creation and the first One of all creation, how could He have the preeminence among all creation?

Christ is a creature because He became “flesh” (John 1:14), took part of “blood and flesh” (Heb. 2:14), was born a “child” (Isa. 9:6), and became a “Man” (1 Tim. 2:5). “Flesh,” “blood and flesh,” “child,” and “man”—these surely indicate creatures. Are not “flesh” and “blood and flesh” created things? Are not “child” and “man” created things? Of course they are! Then, since Christ became these things, how can we say that He is not a creature? If we acknowledge that Christ is man, then we must admit that He is a creature; if we deny that He is a creature, then we deny that He is a man.

We saw earlier that Christ is a man in the flesh not only before His death, but even after His resurrection He is still a man with bones and flesh—He still has a created body; however, it is a resurrected body. Furthermore, He still wears the created human nature in heaven today, just as the last line of stanza 5 in Hymn #113 says: “He wears our nature on the throne” (Hymns, Living Stream Ministry). Even in the future when He shall come again and in eternity, forever He is man and always wears human nature. Since He became flesh and put on human nature, He will never put it off. From His incarnation to eternity He is always man, always wears the created human nature, and always is a created one.

Christ is the “only begotten Son of God (John 1:18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9); He is uniquely one, has divinity and Godhead, and is without beginning, existing in Himself just like God. But Christ as the “firstborn of all creation” or “Firstborn” in resurrection does not come into being by Himself; rather, He has a beginning in creation and resurrection. As to His being the Firstborn of all creation, He has the created human nature. As to His being the Firstborn of the resurrected, He has the uncreated, divine nature and the created, resurrected human nature as well. He, the Firstborn of the resurrected, becomes the firstborn Son of God. As to His uncreated divine nature, He is God’s only begotten Son and is the same as God, without beginning and self-existing. However, according to His uncreated, divine nature, plus His created, resurrected human nature, He is God’s firstborn Son, the Firstborn of the resurrected, but not without beginning and not self-existing, but rather, beginning from resurrection. Regarding His created human nature, He is the Firstborn of all creation, so He surely is not without beginning nor is He self-existing; rather, He begins from creation. He is the uncreated, self-existing One; He is also the Firstborn of the created ones and the resurrected ones. He is called “the Firstborn of all creation” because even before creation God foreordained that He (Christ) should become a created man, just as we have quoted earlier from Watchman Nee’s word: “For in His eternal plan, before the foundation of the world, God has preordained that the Son should become flesh to accomplish redemption (1 Pet. 1:20). In God’s plan, therefore, the Son is the first One among the creatures.” This is not in accordance with Arius’s assertion that Christ was created before the foundation of the world. Such assertion is without scriptural basis. The Bible shows us that before the foundation of the world, even before anything was created, God had foreordained that Christ become a created man in order to accomplish His purpose. Hence, in God’s plan and in His eternal view, Christ is the first one created—He is the Firstborn of all creation, the Head of all the created ones. Therefore, to say that Christ is created and that He is the “firstborn of all creation” is altogether in agreement with the scriptural revelation and is altogether founded on scriptural ground.

Well as you say we will go around and around on this.
But the Bible cleary, exactly, to the point or however one would explain this issue, says exactly what it says.
If ones want to start playing around with what this or that might mean, then your adding to the Bible.
It says what it says and exactly how God wanted it said.

Colossians 1:15

New International Version (NIV)

The Supremacy of the "Son of God"

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation


Not God himself, but the "Son of God".
Not God himself, but "the image of God".
The firstborn of all creation. Not God himself who had no beginning, but the firstborn of all creation.

Being "firstborn" means nothing else at all but what it says, the first to be born of many offspring.

You guys go ahead and do all you want ot twist the truth of Almighty God and of his son just as satan has done from the beginning, but according to the Bible, it is a serious mistake.

Originally posted by galveston75
Well as you say we will go around and around on this.
But the Bible cleary, exactly, to the point or however one would explain this issue, says exactly what it says.
If ones want to start playing around with what this or that might mean, then your adding to the Bible.
It says what it says and exactly how God wanted it said.

Colossians 1:15

Ne satan has done from the beginning, but according to the Bible, it is a serious mistake.

Originally posted by sonship
Before Jesus was resurrected in TIME other people were resurrected.

For example Lazarus (John 11), a widow's son in Luke, even a man in the Old Testament in Elisha the prophet's time.

Yet Jesus is called [b] "the Firstborn of the dead" (Revelation 1:5)

Time wise Jesus was not the first person raised from the dead.
He has preeminence among all resurrected ones.

You lose the case.[/b]

Originally posted by galveston75
He was the first resurrected to heaven is what it means.

Originally posted by galveston75
He was the first resurrected to heaven is what it means.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Heaven is a place that the Bible is not clear about. There appears to be several levels of Heaven. Enoch apparently was taken to one of those. Maybe it was not the same as where God dwells. In the writings of the Book of Enoch it says that Enoch saw the Messiah while taken on that journey through heaven.

In any case my view of that passage is that Christ is the first because he was the first to be raised to immortality. Others risen eventually died.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Heaven is a place that the Bible is not clear about. There appears to be several levels of Heaven. Enoch apparently was taken to one of those. Maybe it was not the same as where God dwells. In the writings of the Book of Enoch it says that Enoch saw the Messiah while taken on that journey through heaven.

In any case my view of that passage is that Christ is the first because he was the first to be raised to immortality. Others risen eventually died.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
dude what's the the bad vibe, I have not mocked you, I just ask that you keep it real,

so how do you explain one singular god as the verse states in the context of the trinity?

The Son is the image of the invisible God..............Think about that for a minute. The image of the invisible God. What then does this mean? I would like an untainted Greek rendering for this.


Manny

Originally posted by RJHinds
So when Jesus said that you must be born again, do you interpret being born again as being resurrected from the dead to immortality?

The Instructor

Originally posted by menace71
The Son is the image of the invisible God..............Think about that for a minute. The image of the invisible God. What then does this mean? I would like an untainted Greek rendering for this.


Manny

Originally posted by RJHinds
So when Jesus said that you must be born again, do you interpret being born again as being resurrected from the dead to immortality?

The Instructor