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    30 Jun '13 18:581 edit
    1. (Deuteronomy 6:4, 5) Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.

    L. L. Paine, professor of ecclesiastical history, indicates that monotheism in its purest form does not allow for a Trinity: “The Old Testament is strictly monotheistic. God is a single personal being. The idea that a trinity is to be found there . . . is utterly without foundation.”

    2. (Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation

    3. (Revelation 3:14) “And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God

    “Beginning” [Greek, arkhe] cannot rightly be interpreted to mean that Jesus was the ‘beginner’ of God’s creation. In his Bible writings, John uses various forms of the Greek word arkhe more than 20 times, and these always have the common meaning of “beginning.”

    4.(John 1:14) So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.

    Trinitarians claim that in the case of Jesus, “only-begotten” is not the same as the dictionary definition of “begetting,” which is “to procreate as the father.” (Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary) They say that in Jesus’ case it means “the sense of unoriginated relationship,” a sort of only son relationship without the begetting. (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words) Does that sound logical to you? Can a man father a son without begetting him?

    Furthermore, why does the Bible use the very same Greek word for “only-begotten” (as Vine admits without any explanation) to describe the relationship of Isaac to Abraham?
  2. Standard memberAgerg
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    30 Jun '13 19:001 edit
    So some will show where parts of the Bible unmistakably imply trinity, others will show parts of the Bible which unmistakably imply NOT trinity...why does this not surprise me in the slightest!? 😵
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    5. (Hebrews 9:24) For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.

    If you appear in someone else’s presence, how can you be that person? You cannot. You must be different and separate.

    6. (Philippians 2:9) For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every [other] name,

    If Jesus had been God, how could Jesus have been exalted, that is, raised to a higher position than he had previously enjoyed? He would already have been an exalted part of the Trinity. If, before his exaltation, Jesus had been equal to God, exalting him any further would have made him superior to God.

    7. (1 Corinthians 11:3) But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.

    8. (John 14:28) because the Father is greater than I am

    9. (1 Corinthians 15:28) But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

    10. (Philippians 2:6) gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.
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    30 Jun '13 19:09
    Originally posted by Agerg
    So some will show where parts of the Bible unmistakably imply trinity, others will show parts of the Bible which unmistakably imply NOT trinity...why does this not surprise me in the slightest!? 😵
    I have provided explanation for the trinity proof texts, let those who believe the heresy provide reasons to these verses.
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    30 Jun '13 19:13
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I have provided explanation for the trinity proof texts, let those who believe the heresy provide reasons to these verses.
    All replies have to be 25 words or less ?
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    30 Jun '13 19:15
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I have provided explanation for the trinity proof texts, let those who believe the heresy provide reasons to these verses.
    From corrupt texts by corrupt translators. It's that simple.

    And you believe it, therefore you are corrupt too.

    You believe in a non-existent Jesus.
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    30 Jun '13 19:25
    John 1:1-2 NASB

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
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    30 Jun '13 19:29
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie


    2. (Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation
    Lifted from CARM - www.carm.org
    Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (my bolding)


    Another passage that Witnesses attempt to distort is Col. 1:15-17 where they translate “For by him all other things were created.” The other is not present in the original Greek. Metzger comments, “As a matter of fact, the ancient Colossian heresy which Paul had to combat resembled the opinion of modern Jehovah’s Witnesses, for some of the Colossians advocated the Gnostic notion that Jesus was the first of many other created intermediaries between God and men.”18 Second, the verb “to create” in reference to Son and Father is not here. Likewise, the reference to the “firstborn of creation” does not indicate inferiority to God, but primacy over creation. Metzger comments, “What God begets is God; just as what mail begets is mail. What God creates is not God; just as what man makes is not mail.”19 In fact, in the same book, Col. 2:9 mentions deity of Christ with the present tense of “dwells” indicating that the fullness of God dwells in Jesus bodily.
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    30 Jun '13 19:31
    Originally posted by Agerg
    So some will show where parts of the Bible unmistakably imply trinity, others will show parts of the Bible which unmistakably imply NOT trinity...why does this not surprise me in the slightest!? 😵
    The Nicene Creed is the profession of faith or creed that is most widely used in Christian liturgy. It forms the mainstream definition of Christianity for most Christians. Here is one translation:


    We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.


    We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    of one Being with the Father.
    Through him all things were made.
    For us and for our salvation
    he came down from heaven:
    by the power of the Holy Spirit
    he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
    and was made man.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    he suffered death and was buried.
    On the third day he rose again
    in accordance with the Scriptures;
    he ascended into heaven
    and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and his kingdom will have no end.


    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed#The_original_Nicene_Creed_of_325

    The Instructor
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    30 Jun '13 19:352 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    1. (Deuteronomy 6:4, 5) Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.

    L. L. Paine, professor of ecclesiastical history, indicates that monotheism in its purest form does not allow for a Trinity: “The Old Testament is strictly monotheistic. God i ...[text shortened]... tten” (as Vine admits without any explanation) to describe the relationship of Isaac to Abraham?
    Responses by Matt Slick of CARM:
    (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry)

    I have not reviewed all these responses and do not necessarily vouch that I would go about responding in the exact same manner in all cases.

    This is just for conversation's sake that responses are available at http://carm.org/jehovahs-witnesses


    Bible Verses Examined
    •1 Chronicles 29:20, is Jesus worshipped the same way David was?
    •Isaiah 40:3; Mal. 3:1; Matt. 3:3, Prepare the way of the Lord.
    •John 1:1, "The word was a god."
    •The Word and The Watchtower: An Exegesis of John 1:1
    •John 5:18, "...making Himself equal with God."
    •John 5:30-32, "By Myself I can do nothing."
    •John 8:58, "Before Abraham came into existence, I have been."
    •John 8:58 and 10:30-33, "I am."
    •John 10:30-33, What made the Jews want to kill Jesus?
    •John 14:28, "The Father is greater than I."
    •John 17:3, "The only true God."
    •1 Cor. 1:2, Call upon the name of the Lord Jesus
    •Col. 1:15, "firstborn of all creation"
    •Col. 1:16-17 - "...all [other] things were created by him..."
    •Heb. 1:6, "Let the angels do obeisance to him."
    •Heb. 1:8 and Psalm 45:6, "God is thy throne."
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    30 Jun '13 20:40
    Originally posted by Eladar
    John 1:1-2 NASB

    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.
    how is it possible to be someone and be with them at the same time? do explain..
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    30 Jun '13 20:431 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Lifted from CARM - www.carm.org
    Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (my bolding)


    Another passage that Witnesses attempt to distort is [b]Col. 1:15-17
    where they translate “For by him all other things were created.” The other is not present in the original Greek. Metzger comments, “As a matter of fact, the ancient Colossian heresy wh ...[text shortened]... e present tense of “dwells” indicating that the fullness of God dwells in Jesus bodily.
    [/b]
    no the verse clearly states that Christ is part of the creation, would you like to look at the original greek text and i will prove it to you as i have done on many other occasions.
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    30 Jun '13 20:451 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    Responses by Matt Slick of CARM:
    (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry)

    I have not reviewed all these responses and do not necessarily vouch that I would go about responding in the exact same manner in all cases.

    This is just for conversation's sake that responses are available at http://carm.org/jehovahs-witnesses


    Bible Ver ance to him."
    •Heb. 1:8 and Psalm 45:6, "God is thy throne."
    this thread is not about Jehovah witnesses it is your chance to provide reasons why these verses are in harmony with the idea of a triune God for anyone with even a semblance of sense can see that they are not. Is this the best you have, some opinions from some other site, woa, no respect her dude, not real enough, too plastic.
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    30 Jun '13 20:494 edits
    this thread is not about Jehovah witnesses it is your chance to provide reasons why these verses are in harmony with the idea of a triune God for anyone with even a semblance of sense can see that they are not.


    As long as you use terms like "Trinitarians" then you should not be bothered if some of use terms like "Jehovah's Witnesses".

    Trinitarians claim that in the case of Jesus ...


    If you're correct in your exegesis then you're a correct Jehovah's Witness. Why be annoyed at that?

    And if you're not correct in your exegesis then you're a mistaken Jehovah's Witness. I think it is as simple as that.
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    30 Jun '13 20:491 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    no the verse clearly states that Christ is part of the creation, would you like to look at the original greek text and i will prove it to you as i have done on many other occasions.
    Col.16,17
    For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

    You are correct robbie. No verse states that Christ is a part of creation. That is because Jesus is the creator.

    It's a no brainer. Unless you read from a corrupt text. In fact your grammar is a reflection of the fact that you read from a corrupt text.
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