Originally posted by Proper Knob
Did you know earliest known text of Revelations, which consists of 12 fragments of papyrus written in Greek and dated 225-275 AD, actually gives the number as 616 and not 666.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_115
How does that fit with your Nero theory?
How does that fit with your Nero theory?
I don't know. I'll have to look at the site.
However, I didn't figure these things out on my own. I was convinced by research of men like D M Panton, who was called "the prince of prophecy" by some of his colleagues.
And Mr. Panton could have made a mistake. He's human. I think for a while he thought Mussolini was the Antichrist.
Take it with a grain of salt if you wish. But doubt don't the things about Jesus, the Son of God, the Lord and Savior.
Originally posted by Proper KnobSince there is only one text that gives 616. I would think that it is more likely
Did you know earliest known text of Revelations, which consists of 12 fragments of papyrus written in Greek and dated 225-275 AD, actually gives the number as 616 and not 666.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_115
How does that fit with your Nero theory?
that that one is in error. The Jews had special scribes trained to copy the Old
Testament writings and were not nearly as likely to pass on an error. The
New Testament did not have these trained scribes so it could be either way;
but if I were betting money on it, I would bet on the 666.
Originally posted by jaywillIt should be pointed out that Mr Panton died in 1955, papyrus 115, to give it it's technical name, wasn't deciphered until long after his death.How does that fit with your Nero theory?
I don't know. I'll have to look at the site.
However, I didn't figure these things out on my own. I was convinced by research of men like D M Panton, who was called "the prince of prophecy" by some of his colleagues.
And Mr. Panton could have made a mistake. He's human. I think for a wh ...[text shortened]... if you wish. But doubt don't the things about Jesus, the Son of God, the Lord and Savior.
Originally posted by RJHindsSince there is only one text that gives 616.
Since there is only one text that gives 616. I would think that it is more likely
that that one is in error. The Jews had special scribes trained to copy the Old
Testament writings and were not nearly as likely to pass on an error. The
New Testament did not have these trained scribes so it could be either way;
but if I were betting money on it, I would bet on the 666.
There are two. Codex Ephraemi Rescriptus gives the same number also.
Originally posted by RJHindsyes he did,
I don't think jaywill said the angel that was King over the abyss was
Satan. The angel King over the abyss was named Abaddon or Apollyon.
He was saying that he believed the star that fell to earth and had the key
in Rev. 9:1 was probably Satan. He had not given proof of this yet. So
let's not jump to conclusions. Give him a chance before you ponce on him.
Revelation 9:11 shows Satan come down from the heavenly realm to open
the pit of the abyss from which demonic locusts come to torment men. The locusts
have a "king over them" - Abaddon and/or Apollyon - Jaywill,
and i have proven that it cannot be Satan.
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Originally posted by jaywillwhy dont you address the references that I gave instead of squirming around, i have
Robbie, Robbie. This matter right now is of secondary importance to me, to your lack of [b] assurance that you have been regenerated and redeemed by the Savior Jesus.
Though I am always glad to see someone read carefully what I wrote (aside from your few misunderstandings), the more important concern I have for you is that you have no assurance of s I could see you get saved and have that joy and assurance that only the Holy Spirit can give.[/b]
proven without a shadow of a doubt that the angel of the abyss cannot be Satan. Your
busted Jaywill.
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Originally posted by Proper Knob
It should be pointed out that Mr Panton died in 1955, papyrus 115, to give it it's technical name, wasn't deciphered until long after his death.
It should be pointed out that Mr Panton died in 1955, papyrus 115, to give it it's technical name, wasn't deciphered until long after his death.
It does not surprise me, if it is true, that a copyist descrepancy occurs in that number. We have thousands of typos among the thousands of recovered NT copies.
If you don't like something of some minor detail of the NT or wish to prove something of some minor detail, you probably can find out of the over 25,000 extant copies of the NT or fragments of, a manuscript to back you up.
As 666 is a somewhat minor point to me, you will not find me in a vigorous debate on that detail.
However, the numbers of the bible are very significant. And man created on the sixth day agrees nicely with the LAST great opposing natural MAN being 6 6 6 or "TOO MUCH MAN".
I have not looked at your papyrus issue at that website. But I lean towards 666 being the number that the original book of Revelation probably contained.
At ANY rate, at any rate, the Antichrist has a mortal stroke which is healed. And he is a marvel to the world and an extremly powerful deception.
In the last days we have four individuals who will be on the earth from the past. The identities of them are not certain. But at the present time I believe they will be:
Antichrist - Nero's soul
The Fale Prophet - Judas Iscariot somehow returned.
The two witnesses of God in Rev. 11 who are probably Moses and Elijah.
(Some argue for Moses and Enoch)
This will be an extraordinary time and battle over the minds and hearts of men. And God reacts by bringing personages from the past to counter Satan's scheme to bring back evil persons from the past.
I said before that the sea represents the Gentiles. The beast out of the earth, the false prophet is not out of the sea but out of the earth. The earth there I believe represents Israel in contrast to the sea representing the Gentile nations:
Compare:
"And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea ..." (13:1) the Antichrist.
"And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth ...(13:11) the False Prophet.
In this time of Satan's extraordinary effort to finally deceive the world two persons from the past are verses two persons from the past.
Some believe Nero and Judas of the Jews (Rev. 13,17) are countered by Moses and Elijah ( Rev.11).
The death of Judas is rather mysterious. It says that "he went to his own place" (Acts 1:25)
Maybe he was reserved by Satan who inhabited him, for another occasion.
The false prophet that John sees "had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke like a dragon" (13:11)
This terribly false prophet seems to remind of the Lamb of God - Jesus. Yet those with discernment can detect the voice of SATAN in his words:
"had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke like a dragon"
Perhaps, this is the dubious honor reserved for the man who betrayed Jesus the Son of God. Jesus said it would have been better for him had he never been born. Perhaps Judas somehow comes back to assist the Antichrist in the last ditch Satanic plot to drive men away from Jesus Christ.
Concerning the Antichrist the New Testament says -
" ... then the lawless one will be revealed (whom the Lord Jesus will slay by the breath of Hhis mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of His coming).
The coming of whom is according to Satan's operation in all power and signs and wonders of a lie and in all deceit of unrighteousness among those who are to perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth that they might be saved.
And because of this God sends to them an operation of error that they might believe the lie, So that all who have not believed the truth but have taken pleasure in unrighteousness might be judged." (2 Thess. 2:8-12)
Because men did not love the truth of the Gospel, the most terrible lie they will believe in error. Possibly this deception involves the coming back to the earth two very evil persons - Nero and Judas.
Originally posted by jaywillAnd Enoch and Elijah too, without Moses.It should be pointed out that Mr Panton died in 1955, papyrus 115, to give it it's technical name, wasn't deciphered until long after his death.
It does not surprise me, if it is true, that a copyist descrepancy occurs in that number. We have thousands of typos among the thousands of recovered NT copies.
If you don't like someth ...[text shortened]... nvolves the coming back to the earth two very evil persons - Nero and Judas.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobie
why dont you address the references that I gave instead of squirming around, i have
proven without a shadow of a doubt that the angel of the abyss cannot be Satan. Your
busted Jaywill.
why dont you address the references that I gave instead of squirming around, i have proven without a shadow of a doubt that the angel of the abyss cannot be Satan. Your busted Jaywill.
I never said the angel of the abyss was Satan. I said the angel of the abyss is the Antichrist.
Maybe I was not clear enough in my writing. I have never thought that that angel was Satan.
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Originally posted by jaywillThank you for taking the time to write this out, Jaywill. I appreciate it. I am curious, though, about some of the assumptions that inform your account of Abaddon’s identity. I’m sure you have your reasons, and you know much more about the Bible than I do. But, if it’s not too burdensome, could you say more about the following?:
Who is Abaddon ?
Revelation 9:11 shows Satan come down from the heavenly realm to open the pit of the abyss from which demonic locusts come to torment men. The locusts have a "king over them" - Abaddon and/or Apollyon
The "star" who comes down is a being because it says " ... I saw a star fallen to the ear h the spirit of 666 - Nero.
That is all I can write at this time.
Why do you think that in Rev. 9:1-11, the star that falls from Heaven is Satan? In Rev 1:18 is it Jesus himself who claims to have “the keys of hell and of death”, and in Rev. 9:1 the star that falls from Heaven has “the key of the bottomless pit”. In Rev. 20:1 the angel that comes from Heaven also is claimed to have “the key of the bottomless pit” and a chain with which he binds Satan. If anything, it seems like the star that falls from Heaven in 9:1 is either Jesus himself or an agent of Jesus (since in Rev 1 Jesus is seen holding stars in his right hand; the angels of the seven churches), just as in Rev. 20:1.
Further, why do you take ‘fall’ in Rev. 9:1 as equivalent to ‘fallen’, as in ‘cast out’? The greek root verb here, pipto can also mean ‘to light upon’, or ‘descend’ just as the angel in Rev. 20:1 does. It seems a real stretch to assume from this passage that the star in question was an angel cast out against his will. In any case, why would Jesus entrust the keys to the Hell to a disgraced and cast out angel? That doesn’t seem either good or smart!
And I am curious as to why you think Rev. 12 lends support to your interpretation of Rev. 9? When Satan (the Dragon) and the bad angels are beaten by Michael and the good angels, Satan is cast unto the earth. There is no mention of Satan having any keys, nor that he opens up any bottomless pits… What is claimed at the end of Rev. 12, in verse 17, is that Satan goes to make war on Christians. But when the locusts are released in Rev. 9, they are commanded not to hurt Christians (those with God’s seal). So Rev. 9 can’t be construed as corresponding to Rev. 12. The targets of the locusts from the abyss in Rev. 9 are totally different than the targets of Satan in Rev. 12.
This is just the beginning of my concerns with your account, but we should probably start here before moving on to talk about the antichrist, etc.
Again, thank you for taking the time to walk through this with me. I appreciate your time and labor.
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Originally posted by jaywillsee bbars text above, your busted!why dont you address the references that I gave instead of squirming around, i have proven without a shadow of a doubt that the angel of the abyss cannot be Satan. Your busted Jaywill.
I never said the angel of the abyss was Satan. I said the angel of the abyss is the Antichrist.
Maybe I was not clear enough in my writing. I have never thought that that angel was Satan.