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Originally posted by bbarr
Thank you for taking the time to write this out, Jaywill. I appreciate it. I am curious, though, about some of the assumptions that inform your account of Abaddon’s identity. I’m sure you have your reasons, and you know much more about the Bible than I do. But, if it’s not too burdensome, could you say more about the following?:
Why do you think that in ...[text shortened]... , thank you for taking the time to walk through this with me. I appreciate your time and labor.
Why do you think that in Rev. 9:1-11, the star that falls from Heaven is Satan?
Revelation may be divided in two major sections - chapters 1 - 11 as the first half and chapters 12 - 22 as the second. If you recall, I said that in the second half, chapters. 12-22, you have some revisiting certain matters a second time which were already covered.
The descent of Satan in chapter 12 marks the beginning of the last three and one half years of the age before the millennial kingdom:
1.) We are told that Satan after being expelled from the third heaven, will persecute a symbolic woman for "a time and times and half a time" (Rev. 12:14). We figure that that is a year, plus two years, plus one half a year. That is three and one half years. That is the second half of the last 7 years of the 70th week [edit] of Daniel, the time of the great tribulation.
2. We are also told that the witnesses of God will prophesy for two thousand and sixty days (11:3). That is three and one half years of the great tribulation.
3.) We are also told that the beast, the Antichrist will act for "forty two months" (Rev. 13:5)
The times, times and half a time = the "two thousand and sixty days" = the "forty two months". All of this points to the last half of the 70th week of Daniel indicating the time of "Jacob's Trouble" or the great tribulation.
We figure that from the descent of Satan then, in chapter 12, the great tribulation commences. This understanding is strengthened by Rev. 12:12 which indicates a particular SEVERE time of WOE will be upon the earth FROM the time that Satan is cast down:
"Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has [only] a short time. " (Rev. 12:12)
Some of us understand then, that the descent of Satan as a result of the heavenly expulsion triggers the start of the three and one half year great tribulation. Now these indications I have supplied all appear in the SECOND half of the book of Revelation - from chapters 12 on.
If we accept that the descent of Satan marks the beginning of the WOE of the great tribulation upon the earth (12:12) it is reasonable to understand the same matter in the first section, chapters 9, roughly the same matter was already indicated.
Here in chapter 9 we see a star fallen who releases terrible punishments upon men from the realm of the demonic. And we are ALSO told that this activity of the Fifth Trumpet is the first of THREE severe WOES upon men on the earth:
"And I saw, and I heard an eagle flying in mid-heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth because of the remaining trumpet sounds of the three angels who are about to trumpet." (Rev. 8:13)
The above 8:13 is immediatly followed by the vision of the star fallen from heaven. We judge that the three WOES of trumpets # 5,6, and 7 are the three the commencing of the time of great tribulation.
Of the seven trumpets it is from the start of the fifth trumpet that man's body is directly touched. Here not only the environment is damaged but man's body is damaged directly.
We judge then that the great tribulation commences from the Fifth Trumpet with the fallen star. Therefore the first section of Revelation shows the commencement of the last three and a half years from the Fifth Trumpet. And the seceond section of Revelation covers the same matter from the standpoint of Satan being cast from heaven to come to the earth in great rage for three and one half years.
We understand that the THREE WOES (Rev. 8:13) in the FIRST section of Revelation and the WOE to the earth (Rev.12:12) speak of the same matter generally.
It is the coming down of Satan which facilitates the "great tribulation" of the last half of the seventieth week of Daniel.
If the two sections do reflect generally each other, than we understand that the Destroyer from the abyss in the first section in chapter 9 must be also the Antichrist of the second section in chapters 12 and 13.
What I have not done in this post is give you more of a explanation why it is reliable to understand Revelation in TWO parts this way. This concept I think I can defend. But for now just realize that in chapter 10 we get the hint that John is to prophecy a SECOND TIME, suggesting the book is in two major sessions of prophecy:
"And they said to me, You must prophesy AGAIN over many peoples and nations and tongues and kings" (Rev. 10:11)
The actual END of the first prophecy is in chapter 11. Because all that pertains to the things to transpire at the conclusion of the great tribulation and the millennial kingdom and eternity are climaxed in that chapter, which covers the events of the SEVENTH trumpet (11:14-18)
We might consider chapter 11 as the END of the book of Revelation in a way. Now there are 12 chapters more to go, chapters 12 - 22. This is the second prophecy which revisits SOME of the things covered in the first prophesy.
This is also the prophecy of the "little scroll" after the greater scroll has been opened by Christ and revealed. We may consider the great scroll of chapter 5 as pertaining to the first section and the "little scroll" of 10:8,9 as the second section.
This is brief. And I wish you would allow me a little more time to address other points raised in your last post.
The bottom line in this post is that the star with his Destroyer corresponds to the Dragon with his beast. Both are the main events of the great tribulation which is first called the three WOES of the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpet in 8:13-9:11 and the three and one half years of the WOE of 12:12.
Originally posted by RJHindswith so much hogswash being posted its hard to tell what Jaywill is actually saying. the
I told you. He didn't say it. I was right again. You're busted my buddy. 😀
fact of the matter is, i have proven that it cannot be Satan, nor any agency from
Satan, for the angel of the abyss is the one who incarcerates Satan. end of the line
for you, Raji Paji, Jaywill and divesgeester, the Bible has interpreted itself and there is
no need for Jaywills excessive excuses, speculation, conjecture and pure
unadulterated twaddle. Is he speaking in tongues, it sure sounds like it, can someone
interpret it for us.
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Originally posted by jaywillBy 'two thousand and sixty days' I assume you mean 'one thousand, two hundred and sixty days'. Right? Anyway, I'll go back through Revelation, looking for correspondences between the earlier and later narratives. But I would appreciate it if you would take the time to address the concerns I mentioned above. Of course, take whatever time you need. This is a tough text; it reads like a schizophrenic's fever-dream, or like J.R.R. Tolkien on acid.Why do you think that in Rev. 9:1-11, the star that falls from Heaven is Satan?
Revelation may be divided in two major sections - [b]chapters 1 - 11 as the first half and chapters 12 - 22 as the second. If you recall, I said that in the second half, chapters. 12-22, you have some revisiting certain matters a second ti 3-9:11[/b] and the three and one half years of the WOE of 12:12.[/b]
Originally posted by jaywillI argue for Enoch and Elijah.
The two witnesses of God in Rev. 11 who are probably Moses and Elijah.
(Some argue for Moses and Enoch)
"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." -- Revelation 11:7
I've heard that these will be Enoch and Elijah because of all the men ever to live on earth, only these two never died. They were both taken up. But it is also written that all men must suffer the first death. This verse fulfills this.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieYou know, it would be great if you'd actually spend some time reading the scripture instead of constantly arguing with people over what it meant.
with so much hogswash being posted its hard to tell what Jaywill is actually saying. the
fact of the matter is, i have proven that it cannot be Satan, nor any agency from
Satan, for the angel of the abyss is the one who incarcerates Satan. end of the line
for you, Raji Paji, Jaywill and divesgeester, the Bible has interpreted itself and there ...[text shortened]... twaddle. Is he speaking in tongues, it sure sounds like it, can someone
interpret it for us.
Originally posted by SuzianneNice work!
I argue for Enoch and Elijah.
"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." -- Revelation 11:7
I've heard that these will be Enoch and Elijah because of all the men ever to live on earth, only these two never died. They were ...[text shortened]... But it is also written that all men must suffer the first death. This verse fulfills this.
Originally posted by bbarrHal Lindsey, in The Late, Great Planet Earth gives his take on Revelation and what it means for us. For the most part, and with only minor differences, I subscribe to his interpretation.
By 'two thousand and sixty days' I assume you mean 'one thousand, two hundred and sixty days'. Right? Anyway, I'll go back through Revelation, looking for correspondences between the earlier and later narratives. But I would appreciate it if you would take the time to address the concerns I mentioned above. Of course, take whatever time you need. This is a tough text; it reads like a schizophrenic's fever-dream, or like J.R.R. Tolkien on acid.
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Originally posted by bbarr
Thank you for taking the time to write this out, Jaywill. I appreciate it. I am curious, though, about some of the assumptions that inform your account of Abaddon’s identity. I’m sure you have your reasons, and you know much more about the Bible than I do. But, if it’s not too burdensome, could you say more about the following?:
Why do you think that in ...[text shortened]... , thank you for taking the time to walk through this with me. I appreciate your time and labor.
In Rev 1:18 is it Jesus himself who claims to have “the keys of hell and of death”, and in Rev. 9:1 the star that falls from Heaven has “the key of the bottomless pit”.
Your interpretation suggests that Jesus Christ is not returning to the earth but is fallen to the earth. The second coming of Christ is not regarded as His fall.
You say, well the word there may not indicate a casting down. Possibly, as words certainly carry different connotations. However, what else can you point to to suggest that at the Fifth Trumpet Jesus Christ returns? The New Testament says He comes back at the last trumpet. That would the seventh trumpet not the fifth.
And we are told that at the seventh trumpet the mystery of God is finished in 10:7.
1.) We do not regard Christ's second coming as His fall.
2.) It is at the last trumpet, the seventh that we expect Him to touch down on the earth.
The angel of the abyss is hardly in coordination with his enemy Christ. We are told that Antichrist will come out of the pit of the abyss (11:7; 17:8).
It is more logical to me that the the Satan attacking man from above and Antichrist attacking man from below is what is indicated by this Fifth Trumpet. Less likely is that Christ comes to earth at the time of the Fifth Trumpet to release demonic powers and the Antichrist His own great final enemy.
The accompanying words of Jesus in 1:17,18 that He has the keys of death and of Hades is that we should not fear:
" ... and He placed His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last and the living One; and I became dead and behold, I am living forever and ever and I have the keys of death and of Hades."
What comes out of the abyss in chapter 9 is definitely a horror. Men are tormented for five months and cannot die though they long to. This is obviously to be feared.
Christ's desire is that Satan and Antichrist would be destroyed rather than released. Of course all things are under God's sovereignty. But it is a stretch to me, that the star represents Jesus in the fifth trumpet.
It may be that it says the star was "given" the key of the pit of the abyss. But Christ obtained the keys [plural] in view of His victorious resurrection.
The star's having the key to the realm of demons is very negative.
Christ's having the keys of death and of Hades is positive as He is eternal life and victorious over death.
Satan has "the might of death" (Hebrews 1:14) . Christ has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel (1 Tim. 1:10)
And I am not certain that the abyss is Hades. I am not sure that where the departed saints and believers are is the same place from which the monsterous locusts come in the Fifth Trumpet or the abyss pit into which Satan is thrown and bound up for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:1,2).
That Nero's spirit went to a particulary heineous place is no surprise. That Satan should be bound and cast there too is understandable.
It is less typical that place of horror and darkness is identical to where the saints of God are asleep in Christ. That place of the believers is called "Abraham's Bosom" (Luke 16:22,23) or Paradise.
The pit of the abyss of Revelation 9 sounds like no paradise to me.
Jesus and the believing thief on the day they died went to Paradise under the earth (Luke 23:43)
I regard the star of Revelation 9 as thoroughly a NEGATIVE symbol of calamity and judgment. I do not regard it as indicating the second coming of Jesus to the earth.
Originally posted by jaywillSo this is also what leads the AntiChrist to turn from his role as "savior of the earth and of man's woes" to proclaim himself as God in the rebuilt Temple? Is this when he awakens to his true purpose? (It's soon after this that the False Prophet engineers the "mark of the Beast".)
Some of us understand then, that the descent of Satan as a result of the heavenly expulsion triggers the start of the three and one half year great tribulation. Now these indications I have supplied all appear in the SECOND half of the book of Revelation - from chapters 12 on.
Or, as described in II Thessalonians 2:7-8, is it more that the restraining power of the Spirit of God is removed and that allows him to assert his true self?
Just asking for your take on this one point.
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Originally posted by jaywillI have studied the Book of Daniel and the prophecy of the 70 weeks of years;Why do you think that in Rev. 9:1-11, the star that falls from Heaven is Satan?
Revelation may be divided in two major sections - [b]chapters 1 - 11 as the first half and chapters 12 - 22 as the second. If you recall, I said that in the second half, chapters. 12-22, you have some revisiting certain matters a second ti 3-9:11[/b] and the three and one half years of the WOE of 12:12.[/b]
and I hope you do not consider me arrogant by saying I also have received
help from the Holy Spirit in it's understanding.
The beginning of the 70th week is when Jesus is baptized and anointed as the
Messiah. He begins making the new covenant that will allow all men, including
the Gentiles, to be saved. This was in the Fall of 27 AD; and in the middle of
this week of years, at the Passover of 31 AD, Jesus put an end to the need for
sacrifices by His supreme sacrifice on the cross. This week of years was
completed in the Fall of 34 AD when the first Gentiles were converted to
Christianity. So this 70th week has already been fulfilled.
Daniel also included what he saw after the 70th week, which was the war with
Rome and the destruction of Jeruselam and the temple that began in 67 AD and
ended in 70 AD, when the Emperor's son and his army overran Jerusalem and
then destroyed the temple. Since Daniel included this information in the last
part of both verse 26 and 27 many scholars assumed that this also occurred
within the last week and therefore manufactured the idea of a long break in
which nothing has happened now for nearly 2000 years. A ridiculous idea, but
most people accepted it because the scholars said so.
Daniel's prophecy of the end times does not begin until chapter 11 verse 36;
and he speaks of the end time tribulation in chapter 12. I do not want to go into
detail on this in order not to distract from your presentation, but I felt compelled
to let you you know so that same error does not keep getting repeated.
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Originally posted by Suziannei posted two verses refuting the assertion that the angel of the abyss is either satanic
You know, it would be great if you'd actually spend some time reading the scripture instead of constantly arguing with people over what it meant.
or demonic, which is a damn site more than you have done, like all nominal Christians
all you can proffer is references of others making interpretations on your behalf, i
belong to Paul, I belong to Apollos, and the Christ stands divided, some things never
change.
the verses in revelation mention nothing of an Antichrist as has been erroneously
asserted with more wordy bile water and ill founded assumptions than i care to
mention.
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Originally posted by Suzianne
So this is also what leads the AntiChrist to turn from his role as "savior of the earth and of man's woes" to proclaim himself as God in the rebuilt Temple? Is this when he awakens to his true purpose? (It's soon after this that the False Prophet engineers the "mark of the Beast".)
Or, as described in II Thessalonians 2:7-8, is it more that the restrai ...[text shortened]... d that allows him to assert his true self?
Just asking for your take on this one point.
So this is also what leads the AntiChrist to turn from his role as "savior of the earth and of man's woes" to proclaim himself as God in the rebuilt Temple?
The title you refered to "savior of the earth and of man's woes" may be something some teacher used. I am not familiar with it.
But, I think we can expect this person to come as a solver of world economic problems for the first half of his reign. He will be someone whom the world will envy for his imposing appearance and brilliant intellect.
I expect that he will be assasinated or harmed in some mortal way. I expect that upon him being resuscitated his personality will change to be exceedingly evil and unusually powerful.
The history of this age will conclude with a man who will physically fight against God.
I am not certain what the restraining force is. But I think something is preventing the world right now from running amock. There is some kind of restraining power which will be removed.
I expect this Antichrist character to be initially very benevalent. But after the healing of his mortal wound to be very evil.
That is all I want to share right now.
Originally posted by RJHindsI hope you do not consider me arrogant by saying I also have received help from the Holy Spirit in it's understanding.
I have studied the Book of Daniel and the prophecy of the 70 weeks of years;
and I hope you do not consider me arrogant by saying I also have received
help from the Holy Spirit in it's understanding.
The beginning of the 70th week is when Jesus is baptized and anointed as the
Messiah. He begins making the new covenant that will allow all men, including ...[text shortened]... but I felt compelled
to let you you know so that same error does not keep getting repeated.
Not arrogant. More along the lines of bonkers.
Originally posted by Proper KnobI really was not concerned about what you thought. I was addressing this
[b]I hope you do not consider me arrogant by saying I also have received help from the Holy Spirit in it's understanding.
Not arrogant. More along the lines of bonkers.[/b]
to a fellow Christian. I would expect as much from you because you view
any one that believes in God as bonkers.
Originally posted by RJHindsIncorrect there Ron. I don't view anyone who believes in God as bonkers, just your assertion that a Holy Spirit helped you understand a book.
I really was not concerned about what you thought. I was addressing this
to a fellow Christian. I would expect as much from you because you view
any one that believes in God as bonkers.
Anyhow ignore me, this is an interesting thread and i shall hijack it no more.