Originally posted by bbarr
I'll read all of Revelation tomorrow morning in preparation. I'm looking forward to your analysis!
I'll read all of Revelation tomorrow morning in preparation. I'm looking forward to your analysis!
What ? The entire book? Splendid!
I am commited now. If you really went through that trouble, I feel obligated. But it will be latter today. I need an hour of providing the logical connections of certain texts.
I have always thought that there is a special blessing related to even READING the book of Revelation, regardless. And in my opinion, especially aloud.
"Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things written in it, for the time is near." (Rev. 1:3)
You'll get your analysis.
Originally posted by jaywillI have read it several times and read through what people thought it meant, but I still cannot understand it neither do I agree with most of the so-called interpretations.I'll read all of Revelation tomorrow morning in preparation. I'm looking forward to your analysis!
What ? The entire book? Splendid!
I am commited now. If you really went through that trouble, I feel obligated. But it will be latter today. I need an hour of providing the logical connections of certain texts.
I have always ...[text shortened]... things written in it, for the time is near." (Rev. 1:3)
You'll get your analysis.[/b]
Here is another applicable verse to Revelation since its 90% prophecy with figurative expressions ..
2 Peter 1:20-21 ... no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
I think it is saying that you need the inspiration and guidance of God to acccurately interpret prophecy. Hence the reason why so many have tried to interpret and time has proven them wrong . Ask any JW .. 😀
So Im all ears as well Jaywill.
Originally posted by jaywillSo, I'm here with my coffee, going through Revelation. I love that on a dark Seattle morning I start reading a book that pretty much begins with "Blessed is he that readeth...". I'm going through this with an eye towards questions of Jesus' identity, either as partially comprising a triune essence or as, alternatively, Michael and possibly Abaddon. I forgot how beautifully written the KJV is.I'll read all of Revelation tomorrow morning in preparation. I'm looking forward to your analysis!
What ? The entire book? Splendid!
I am commited now. If you really went through that trouble, I feel obligated. But it will be latter today. I need an hour of providing the logical connections of certain texts.
I have always ...[text shortened]... things written in it, for the time is near." (Rev. 1:3)
You'll get your analysis.[/b]
Who is Abaddon ?
Revelation 9:11 shows Satan come down from the heavenly realm to open the pit of the abyss from which demonic locusts come to torment men. The locusts have a "king over them" - Abaddon and/or Apollyon
The "star" who comes down is a being because it says " ... I saw a star fallen to the earth, and to him was given the key to the pit of the abyss" (9:1b). "[T]o him" indicates the star that is fallen is an fallen angel. He comes down not of his own accord, but is "fallen". He is thrust out against his will.
This corresponds to Satan being driven out of heaven in chapter 12. So the Fifth Trumpet of Revelation 9 reveals Satan coming down having the key to the realm of demonic beings. And the demonic beings from the abyss have a king over them whose name means DESTRUCTION (Abaddon - Hebrew). The Greek version of his name "Apollyon" means "DESTROYER".
We are told in Daniel 8:23-25 that the fierce Antichrist king "will destroy in an extraordinary manner ... He will destroy mighty men and the holy people" (v.24). And we are told "he will destroy many who are complacently secure ..."
The Destroyer who is Destruction who is king over the demonic locusts is the coming Antichrist. He is released from that same terrible place by the fallen star (Satan) at the beginning of the Great Tribulation which is commenced at the Fifth Trumpet of Revelation 9.
Now, just by reading Revelation 9 it is hard to discern all of this. But the book of Revelation has some repetition in it. After chapter 11 the next chapters (12 - 22) involve some rehash, some repetition with greater details devoted especially to the last three and one half years of this age. So, what is revealed in chapter 9 is revisited in chapter 12.
The fallen star of Revelation 9 is the same being as the Dragon and Satan cast out of heaven in chapter 12. Chapter 12 revisits some previously disclosed matters. The proof of this will not be rigorously explained in this post.
But taking this understanding we see that when Satan is cast down from heaven in chapter 12 he summons up the beast, the Antichrist:
" ... Woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time" (Rev. 12:12b)
The "fallen" star of the Fifth Trumpet is exactly the Devil cast out of heaven and coming down to the earth in great rage. He knows he has short time. So he pulls out all the demonic stops and released demonic forces on the earth. Plus he summons up a king over them, the beast.
"And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.
And he stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and on his heads names of blasphemy." (See Rev. 12:17 through 13:1)
Here "the sea" is symbolic of the Gentile nations. So ONE SOURCE of the Antichrist is the Gentile nations.
But on the other hand we are told that the source of the Antichrist is the abyss (Rev. 17:8; 11:7) .
1.) The SOURCE then of the Antichrist is one of the Gentile nations symbolized by the sea.
2.) The SOURCE then of the Antichrist is also the abyss or realm of demonic and dead evil beings.
Now judging from the details of the Antichrist being killed and whose death wound had healed (Revelation 13:3; 13:14) we understand that this evil person will undergo a counterfiet death and resurrection.
Before his death he is a normally born man from one of the Gentile nations. After his being killed and reviving he is a composite being whose body is inhabited by some evil king of the past.
I will not develop this now. But the numbers 666 are calculated from the name Ceasar Nero in a certain way when Greek and Hebrew letters are used. I will not demonstrate this now. I do not have Greek and Hebrew fonts. But take my word for it if you wish.
666 means Ceasar Nero.
Now, I am short on time tonight. But it is the details of Revelation 17:8-11) which tell us that this king who becomes Antichrist:
1.) Was in the past before John wrote Revelation.
2.) Was not WHILE John was writing Revelation.
3.) Will be in the future at the end of the church age.
This scheme is derived from an analysis of Rev. 17:8-11 which I will not expound in this post.
Coupled with the fact that Antichrist is from TWO sources - Gentile nation + the abyss, with the calculation of 666 meaning Ceasar Nero, coupled with the fact that the Antichrist WAS, and IS NOT, and SHALL come up out of the abyss and go into perdition (Rev.17:11) scholars have figured out that he must be someone from the past come back to life.
Since Antichrist is KILLED and REVIVED we understand that when he is revived he is inhabited with the spirit of 666 - Nero.
That is all I can write at this time.
Originally posted by jaywillIf the King is someone from the past why could it not be King Herod the Great?
Who is Abaddon ?
[b] Revelation 9:11 shows Satan come down from the heavenly realm to open the pit of the abyss from which demonic locusts come to torment men. The locusts have a "king over them" - Abaddon and/or Apollyon
The "star" who comes down is a being because it says " ... I saw a star fallen to the ear ...[text shortened]... h the spirit of 666 - Nero.
That is all I can write at this time.
I understand He was a pretty evil guy who wanted to kill Jesus as a baby and
had many other babies put to death.
Originally posted by jaywilli dont think i have read such a pile of utter and complete nonsense since my time in spirituality,
Who is Abaddon ?
Revelation 9:11 shows Satan come down from the heavenly realm to open the pit of the abyss from which demonic locusts come to torment men. The locusts have a "king over them"- Abaddon and/or Apollyon
The "star" who comes down is a being because it says " ... I saw a star fallen to the ear h the spirit of 666 - Nero.
That is all I can write at this time.
Revelation 9:11 shows Satan come down from the heavenly realm to open
the pit of the abyss from which demonic locusts come to torment men. The locusts
have a "king over them" - Abaddon and/or Apollyon - Jaywill,
please note the assumptions,
1. that the King is Satan, substantiating evidence, none. Its nothing but pure and
utter dogmatic one dimensional thinking. Where is the supporting text that this is
Satan Jaywill? why are you content to utter forth saying without the slightest piece
of evidence?
2. demonic locusts, evidence none. Where is the supporting text that the locusts are
demonic Jaywill? Do you think that it is fine to make these unsubstantiated
assertions simply because you can?
In the very first sentence you have sought to introduce your dogmatic thinking
without recourse to anything other than well, your dogma. This is both
irresponsible and unacceptable. If the scriptures do not state that the King is
satanic, why are you saying that they do? if the scriptures do not state that the
locusts are daemonic, why are you saying that they do? Revelation 9:11 says
nothing of the sort Jaywill. Its so unbelievably one dimensional.
666 means Ceasar Nero???? for goodness sake get a grip.
the whole premise is refuted by these scriptures,
(Revelation 9:1) . . .And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had
fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given
him. . .
(Revelation 20:1-3) . . .And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key
of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he seized the dragon, the original
serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. And he
hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not
mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these
things he must be let loose for a little while.
What are we observing here? Satan, with the Key of the Abyss, incarcerating
himself? what utter nonsense. This verse single handedly refutes the premise that
the Angel of the Abyss is Satan, Satanic or a daemon.
I appeal to bbar for his objectivity.
Originally posted by RJHinds
If the King is someone from the past why could it not be King Herod the Great?
I understand He was a pretty evil guy who wanted to kill Jesus as a baby and
had many other babies put to death.
If the King is someone from the past why could it not be King Herod the Great? I understand He was a pretty evil guy who wanted to kill Jesus as a baby and had many other babies put to death.
There are many bad kings who could be candidates to be brought back as Antichrist. I agree that Herod certainly could certainly audition for the position. However, because of a number of factors some feel Nero is indicated.
"Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains where the woman sits and are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain only a short time. And the beast who was and is not, he himself is also the eighth and is out of the seven and goes into perdition." (Rev. 17:9-11)
1.) That the seven heads are seven moutians may indicate the city of Rome which sits upon seven hills.
2.) We are also told the seven heads are seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come.
The seven kings are seven Ceasars of the Roman Empire. The first five of these have "fallen". This indicates that they died unnaturally as in Judges 3:25 and Second Samuel 1:10,25, and 27.
It is reasoned by some that the five "fallen" kings are:
Julius Ceasar,
Tiberius,
Caligula,
Claudius,
Nero
These five Ceasars of Rome were either murdered or committed suicide BEFORE the Apostle John wrote the book of Revelation. These five kings were fallen prior to John's revelation. The sixth king was the Ceasar present at the time John was writing Revelation. That was Dominitian who also was eventually murdered.
The sixth Ceasar, Dominitian, was alive while John was writing. The five - had already fallen (died unnaturally). Dominitian was the king of whom John writes "one is".
" ... seven kings: five have fallen, ONE IS ..." - Dominitian, the sixth.
Now "the other" is the king after the sixth king. This "other" points to Antichrist - "the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain only a short time."
Some feel that this "other" is the not chronologically the Ceasar after Dominitian but points to the final Antichrist who will come for a short time at the end of the age.
The area of his kingship will be the geographic area which comprised the ancient Roman Empire. The "other," the seventh king, is Antichrist; he had "not yet come" at the time John was writing Revelation.
Now here is the important factor why some believe the one who has not yet come is Nero. The seventh Ceasar, Antichrist, will be slain and will be resuscitated. BUT it says that he is the EIGHTH king who is out of the SEVEN.
"And the beast who was and is not, he himself is also the eigth and is out of the seven and goes into perdition" (v.11)
The fifth king was Nero. The number 666 calculates out to Ceasar Nero in a certain way when numerical values are given to Greek and Hebrew letters in which I will not go into now.
Antichrist will be the coming seventh Caesar ruling over what is essentially the geographic area constituting the ancient Roman Empire. This seventh Ceasar will be killed according to the prophecy. He is slain and resucitated. In that resuscitation the spirit of the fifth Caesar (Nero) , which will be in the abyss, will come up and animate and resuscitate the dead body of the seventh Ceasar, the coming Antichrist.
In this way this Antichrist is "of the seven" but is the eighth.
The seventh is killed and re-animated with the spirit of the fifth, Nero, to be the eigth.
In this way this evil person who imitates the resurrection of Jesus Christ, deceiving the world, will have the physical body of the seventh Ceasar, the spirit of the fifth Ceasar, and raised by a Satanic power to be the EIGHTH - the final.
Therefore, this coming seventh Ceasar will die and come back to be the eighth king, yet with extraordinary capability, powers, intelligence, charm. We expect a coming world leader to come on the scene - the seventh king. We expect that he will be slain and resuscitated - coming back far more evil and deceiving than before. We expect that he will be a wonder and marvel that will capture the deceived attention of the world.
"The beast that you saw was and is not and is about to come up out of the abyss and go into perdition. And those who dwell on the earth, those whose are not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life, will marvel when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will be present." (v.8)
Many evil kings have come and gone. Many seem to qualifiy to be the final Antichrist, as you suggest. This one will be a culmination of ALL the evil rulers. The name seems to be Ceasar Nero based on the number 666. And Nero "was and is not and will be present" when his spirit comes up from the abyss to inhabit the body of the slain and resuscitated seventh king - to be the EIGHTH.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI don't think jaywill said the angel that was King over the abyss was
i dont think i have read such a pile of utter and complete nonsense since my time in spirituality,
Revelation 9:11 shows Satan come down from the heavenly realm to open
the pit of the abyss from which demonic locusts come to torment men. The locusts
have a "king over them" - Abaddon and/or Apollyon - Jaywill,
please note the assumptions, ...[text shortened]... he Angel of the Abyss is Satan, Satanic or a daemon.
I appeal to bbar for his objectivity.
Satan. The angel King over the abyss was named Abaddon or Apollyon.
He was saying that he believed the star that fell to earth and had the key
in Rev. 9:1 was probably Satan. He had not given proof of this yet. So
let's not jump to conclusions. Give him a chance before you ponce on him.
Originally posted by jaywillI am one of those Christians who have never really studied RevelationsIf the King is someone from the past why could it not be King Herod the Great? I understand He was a pretty evil guy who wanted to kill Jesus as a baby and had many other babies put to death.
There are many bad kings who could be candidates to be brought back as Antichrist. I agree that [b]Herod certainly could certainly a ...[text shortened]... dy of the slain and resuscitated seventh king - to be the EIGHTH.[/b]
to understand all these weird visions. So I can't really disagree with
what you have said. It seems resonable up to the point of not counting
the other Ceasars after Dominitian. I don't understand that part.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRobbie, Robbie. This matter right now is of secondary importance to me, to your lack of assurance that you have been regenerated and redeemed by the Savior Jesus.
i dont think i have read such a pile of utter and complete nonsense since my time in spirituality,
Revelation 9:11 shows Satan come down from the heavenly realm to open
the pit of the abyss from which demonic locusts come to torment men. The locusts
have a "king over them" - Abaddon and/or Apollyon - Jaywill,
please note the assumptions, ...[text shortened]... he Angel of the Abyss is Satan, Satanic or a daemon.
I appeal to bbar for his objectivity.
Though I am always glad to see someone read carefully what I wrote (aside from your few misunderstandings), the more important concern I have for you is that you have no assurance of salvation.
You are being cheated, by false teaching. You are being robbed of the genuine regeneration through receiving Christ within as Lord.
The antichrist teachings of the Jehovah's Witnesses are insulating you against receiving Jesus Christ as salvation.
This is far more important to me, concerning you, than nuances of Revelation, though I love to discuss Revelation.
I'd be happy to lose EVERY debate on Bible doctrine to you, IF I could see you get saved and have that joy and assurance that only the Holy Spirit can give.
Originally posted by RJHinds
I am one of those Christians who have never really studied Revelations
to understand all these weird visions. So I can't really disagree with
what you have said. It seems resonable up to the point of not counting
the other Ceasars after Dominitian. I don't understand that part.
I am one of those Christians who have never really studied Revelations
to understand all these weird visions. So I can't really disagree with
what you have said. It seems resonable up to the point of not counting
the other Ceasars after Dominitian. I don't understand that part.
First let me correct a misquote of Scripture. I left out the word "names"
" ... And those who dwell on the eaerth, [those] whose names are not written from the foundation of the world in thebook of life, will marvel when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will be present." (See Rev. 17:8b)
Concerning your puzzlement: I suppose that many Roman kings came after Dominitian who came for a relatively short time. In that regard, I agree - why should we believe Nero is indicated?
If it were not for the 666 indication perhaps we would not know that Nero is implicated.
The number of the beast, we are told, is the number of a man (Rev. 13:18). The number points to a man. But which man? But what man?
The number 666 represents by t he Hebrew letters of the name Caesar Nero by some method in which Greek pronunciation is compared to Hebrew letters with numercial values:
I do not have Greek and Hebrew fonts on my PC. But the numbers of this scheme come out like this:
Nero =
50
200
6
50
=====
306
Caesar =
100
60
200
======
360
306 + 360 = 666.
John did not specifically mention Nero during this reign of the Roman Empire. The number 666 was devized to indicate Nero. Therefore it says "Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred sixty-six." (Rev.13:18)
Now the star is Satan in Revelation 9. And we should understand that the coming up of the Antichrist from the abyss as the Destroyer and Destruction corresponds to the dragon summoning up the beast in chapter 12.
The fact that the king of the demonic locusts has his name given to us in Hebrew and Greek (Rev.9:11) may be a clue that these two languages are needed to calculate as we have done.
Originally posted by jaywillDid you know earliest known text of Revelations, which consists of 12 fragments of papyrus written in Greek and dated 225-275 AD, actually gives the number as 616 and not 666.I am one of those Christians who have never really studied Revelations
to understand all these weird visions. So I can't really disagree with
what you have said. It seems resonable up to the point of not counting
the other Ceasars after Dominitian. I don't understand that part.
First let me correct a misquote of Scripture. I left ...[text shortened]... :11) may be a clue that these two languages are needed to calculate as we have done.[/b]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_115
How does that fit with your Nero theory?
Originally posted by jaywillThe Promise Is Eternal Life 1 john from biblegateway
Robbie, Robbie. This matter right now is of secondary importance to me, to your lack of [b] assurance that you have been regenerated and redeemed by the Savior Jesus.
Though I am always glad to see someone read carefully what I wrote (aside from your few misunderstandings), the more important concern I have for you is that you have no assurance of s ...[text shortened]... I could see you get saved and have that joy and assurance that only the Holy Spirit can give.[/b]
25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
28 Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
RC
I agree with Jaywill and these words of encouragement are for you and all 🙂
Manny
Originally posted by RJHinds
I don't think jaywill said the angel that was King over the abyss was
Satan. The angel King over the abyss was named Abaddon or Apollyon.
He was saying that he believed the star that fell to earth and had the key
in Rev. 9:1 was probably Satan. He had not given proof of this yet. So
let's not jump to conclusions. Give him a chance before you ponce on him.
I'll explain that latter.