Originally posted by DoctorScribbles.... not just a priest, but a priest who accepts and explains the teachings of the Magisterium of the Church.
That's exactly right. Moreover, according to ivanhoe, the only way to correctly understand the Bible is to have a Catholic priest explain it to you.
There are enough Catholic priests around who reject (part of) the teachings of the Magisterium and one day decided to preach their own interpretation of the Scriptures.
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Originally posted by ivanhoeFunny, that's what the Pharisees said about somebody ........
.... not just a priest, but a priest who accepts and explains the teachings of the Magisterium of the Church.
There are enough Catholic priests around who reject (part of) the teachings of the Magisterium and one day decided to preach their own interpretation of the Scriptures.
Originally posted by ivanhoeAre you saying that people cannot understand the scriptures without the help of a priest? Surely there is evidence to the contrary
.... not just a priest, but a priest who accepts and explains the teachings of the Magisterium of the Church.
There are enough Catholic priests around who reject (part of) the teachings of the Magisterium and one day decided to preach their own interpretation of the Scriptures.
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (John 16 v 13).
When people 'accept' Jesus they receive the Spirit of God, who will help them to understand.
Originally posted by mancityboyBut you cant use a biblical passage as evidence since you didn't get a Catholic priest to explain its true meaning to you.
Are you saying that people cannot understand the scriptures without the help of a priest? Surely there is evidence to the contrary
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (John 16 v 13).
When people 'accept' Jesus they receive the Spirit of God, who will help them to understand.
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Originally posted by mancityboyhttp://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PY2.HTM
Are you saying that people cannot understand the scriptures without the help of a priest? Surely there is evidence to the contrary
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (John 16 v 13).
When people 'accept' Jesus they receive the Spirit of God, who will help them to understand.
Then the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, "Get up and head south on the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, the desert route."
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So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, 8 that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship,
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and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah.
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The Spirit said to Philip, "Go and join up with that chariot."
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9 Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, "Do you understand what you are reading?"
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He replied, "How can I, unless someone instructs me?" So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.
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This was the scripture passage he was reading: "Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
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In (his) humiliation justice was denied him. Who will tell of his posterity? For his life is taken from the earth."
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Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply, "I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this? About himself, or about someone else?"
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Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him.
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As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, "Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?"
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Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptized him.
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When they came out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, but continued on his way rejoicing.
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Philip came to Azotus, and went about proclaiming the good news to all the towns until he reached Caesarea.
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If you read the Scriptures you will need "somebody" to explain to you what it is all about. Scripture itself advises this to the reader.
The most trustworthy teacher you can get is not a single human, but the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church. Otherwise you'll most likely get confused and in the end make a mess of things. The evidence of this can be found, among other places, here on the Spirituality forum. Look at all those atheist interpretations of Scripture, the one even more ignorant and fundamentalist than the other. Look at the protestant denominations. The one even more confused and fundamentalist than the other.
The further away their teachings are from the teachings of the Roman-Catholic Magisterium the further these teachings are away from the Truth of Christ.
Note that the one who explains is being sent by "the Angel of the Lord" and "the Spirit" and also note that the Ethiopian "invites" Philip to explain things to him.
That is exactly what we have to do in order to truly understand Scripture. We have to invite "somebody" who is sent by the Angel of the Lord" and the "Spirit" to explain Scripture to us. Explanation from some other sourse will lead us astray.
The only "somebody" who meets these criteria is the Magisterium of the Roman-Catholic Church.
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Originally posted by ivanhoeWhen Jesus said 'I am the Good Shepherd,' I don't think he meant for
.... not just a priest, but a priest who accepts and explains the teachings of the Magisterium of the Church.
His followers to have the brains of sheep (but I guess I have to ask a
priest who accepts the teachings of the Magisterium before I can have
a definitive opinion on the topic).
Nemesio
Originally posted by ivanhoeJust to broaden this a bit—since not everyone who rejects the notion of sola scriptura, or biblical literalism/inerrancy is Roman Catholic 🙂—one needs to look at the tradition, particularly the patristic period. However, when one does look there, one finds, I think, what Jaroslav Pelikan called a somewhat “pluralistic tradition.”
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PY2.HTM
Then the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, "Get up and head south on the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, the desert route."
27
So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, 8 that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire trea ...[text shortened]... ts these criteria is the Magisterium of the Roman-Catholic Church.
When people claim that the Holy Spirit guides them to a “right understanding,” they usually seem to mean one or more of the following—
(1) The Holy Spirit operates strictly through individuals, rather than through the ecclesia as a whole;
(2) That, since they “have” the Spirit, whatever they say the right understanding of scripture is, must be—well, the right one;
(3) That whatever understanding they have come to is necessarily normative for everyone; and/or
(4) That their understanding has nevertheless been confirmed by someone—e.g., their church or community group, the commentaries they read, etc.
Sometimes when one looks at the tradition—especially among those who were still working in the original languages—one finds that the biblical text itself does not, in fact, say what one thought it did, no matter how invested with the Spirit one thought s/he was.
Originally posted by vistesdThere is only a slight difference between those who claim that the
(1) The Holy Spirit operates strictly through individuals, rather than through the ecclesia as a whole;
(2) That, since they “have” the Spirit, whatever they say the right understanding of scripture is, must be—well, the right one;
Holy Spirit speaks through them and, thus, their interpretation is the
only right one and a denominational tradition who asserts the
same through the ecclesia. They are similar in that they are the sole
arbiters of right and wrong and that any inkling on the part of an
individual that may differ from that standard is a misguided one rather
than the Holy Spirit taking route in them.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioI agree that has happened. I am wondering if a measure of the activity of the Holy Spirit is in opening things up, rather than hemming things in... The Spirit that blows where it wills... And finds ways to work across religions. I find the Orthodox to be somewhat more open (though not all of them, certainly), and yet still bound in many ways.
There is only a slight difference between those who claim that the
Holy Spirit speaks through them and, thus, their interpretation is the
only right one and a denominational tradition who asserts the
same through the ecclesia. They are similar in that they are the sole
arbiters of right and wrong and that any inkling on the part of an
individ ...[text shortened]... m that standard is a misguided one rather
than the Holy Spirit taking route in them.
Nemesio
Quite frankly, I think the Holy Spirit is the “wild card” that no one can claim to have tamed or boxed in.
Originally posted by vistesdA priest I know (although a 'renegade' by Ivanhoe's standard) insists
Quite frankly, I think the Holy Spirit is the “wild card” that no one can claim to have tamed or boxed in.
that the Holy Spirit will compel the Magisterium to acknowledge the
truths that they currently deny as incongruous with the Church. That
women will be priests, for example, is an example of such a truth, that
the Spirit has spoken through individuals, then communities, and, now
some priests, and that the Spirit will, like a fire, consume the hearts of
all but the most closed of individuals.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioConfusion confusion confusion .....
When Jesus said 'I am the Good Shepherd,' I don't think he meant for
His followers to have the brains of sheep (but I guess I have to ask a
priest who accepts the teachings of the Magisterium before I can have
a definitive opinion on the topic).
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioI never met the man, so please don't accuse me of calling him a "renegade".
A priest I know (although a 'renegade' by Ivanhoe's standard) insists
that the Holy Spirit will compel the Magisterium to acknowledge the
truths that they currently deny as incongruous with the Church. That
women will be priests, for example, is an example of such a truth, that
the Spirit has spoken through individuals, then communities, and, now
some ...[text shortened]... will, like a fire, consume the hearts of
all but the most closed of individuals.
Nemesio
By the way, the Church has stated that She does not have the authority to ordain women priests. Keep that in mind. Maybe one day this statement will explain one or two things about the position of the Church regarding this issue in the past and in the days ( ... or years) to come.
... and please, beware of the logical fallacy which implicitely suggests that one belongs to the "most closed of individuals" in case one doesn't agree with you ( .... or the priest in question).
... by the way, which are these other truths that will have to be acknowledged by the Magisterium, that they currently deny as "incongruous with the Church" as you chose to formulate it ?