1. SubscriberFMF
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    17 Jan '13 16:471 edit
    On page 14 of this Thread 150734, robbie stated that his version of God permits him to own slaves [as long as it does not break local secular law].

    FMF: What about twenty first century Christians? Are they permitted by God to own slaves?

    robbie: If its not against the law, yes.


    It came at the end of a lengthy dialogue.

    Is this opinion about the legitimacy of slavery even until this day a commonly held belief among Christians?
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    17 Jan '13 16:581 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    On page 14 of this Thread 150734, robbie stated that his version of God permits him to own slaves [as long as it does not break local secular law].

    Is this a commonly held belief among Christians?
    In fact i stated that as a resident of the UK I am not permitted to own slaves because it breaks secular laws, that you choose to misrepresent what i stated is typical of the type of person you are, thank you for demonstrating it time and again, an insidious and arrogant slanderer.
  3. SubscriberFMF
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    17 Jan '13 17:011 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    In fact i stated that as a resident of the UK I am not permitted to own slaves because it breaks secular laws, that you choose to misrepresent what i stated is typical of the type of person you are, thank you for demonstrating it time and again, an insidious and arrogant liar.
    People can go and take a look at out discussion for themselves. I have provided a link. You were quite clear that you believe yourself to be permitted by God to own slaves as long as it does not break local secular law.

    Now, I ask other posters: is this a commonly held Christian belief?
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    17 Jan '13 17:031 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    On page 14 of this Thread 150734, robbie stated that his version of God permits him to own slaves [as long as it does not break local secular law].

    Is this a commonly held belief among Christians?
    Here's one source:

    "The issue of slavery was one that historically did not see a consistent position by the Catholic Church, but was a subject of a long debate that began early in the history of the Church, and which gave increased support toward abolition in the 19th century. In 1965 the Second Vatican Council declared without qualification that slavery was an "infamy" that dishonored the Creator and was a poison in society.[1]"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_slavery

    The reference ([1]) is to Gaudium et Spes 27 and 29 which says:

    27...whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where men are treated as mere tools for profit, rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others of their like are infamies indeed. They poison human society, but they do more harm to those who practice them than those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are supreme dishonor to the Creator.

    29...Human institutions, both private and public, must labor to minister to the dignity and purpose of man. At the same time let them put up a stubborn fight against any kind of slavery, whether social or political, and safeguard the basic rights of man under every political system.

    unquote

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

    Wikipedia reports that there are about 1.2 billion Catholics.
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    17 Jan '13 17:05
    Originally posted by FMF
    People can go and take a look at out discussion for themselves. You were quite clear that you believe yourself to be permitted by God to own slaves as long as it does not break local secular law.

    Now, I ask other posters: is this a commonly held Christian belief?
    Yes that is the Bible point of view but I resent your misrepresentation of my text by making it personal towards me. As you have produced nothing to the contrary except to state that it is not according to your knowledge permitted by the God of the Bible despite being asked numerous times, well good luck with your discussion.
  6. SubscriberFMF
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    17 Jan '13 17:09
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Yes that is the Bible point of view but I resent your misrepresentation of my text by making it personal towards me. As you have produced nothing to the contrary except to state that it is not according to your knowledge permitted by the God of the Bible despite being asked numerous times, well good luck with your discussion.
    Do you predict that your opinion about the legitimacy of slavery even in current times is a commonly held belief among Christians?
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    17 Jan '13 17:103 edits
    Originally posted by FMF
    Do you predict that your opinion about the legitimacy of slavery even in current times is a commonly held belief among Christians?
    Anyone is free to refute the claims, Biblically, as they wish, I don't make predictions, why don't you buy a lucky bag, who knows, maybe you'll get a mask to interchange with your usual one. I also don't care much for opinion, specially popular opinion, or yours for that mater.
  8. SubscriberFMF
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    17 Jan '13 17:16
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I also don't care much for opinion, specially popular opinion, or yours for that mater.
    For what it's worth, my opinion is that slavery is an immoral abomination.
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    17 Jan '13 17:171 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Anyone is free to refute the claims, Biblically, as they wish, I don't make predictions, why don't you buy a lucky bag.
    What about the stoning of children who answer back to their parents? Deuteronomy 21:18-21 lays this out. If secular law allowed such a practice would it be okay for 21st century Christians to carry out this act?
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    17 Jan '13 17:20
    Originally posted by FMF
    For what it's worth, my opinion is that slavery is an immoral abomination.
    we are not talking about your opinion, valuable as it might be to someone somewhere, we are talking of the Bibles allowance or otherwise of a Christian having jurisdiction to own slaves. Please provide evidence to the contrary, or the statement stands.
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    17 Jan '13 17:211 edit
    Originally posted by Proper Knob
    What about the stoning of children who answer back to their parents? Deuteronomy 21:18-21 lays this out. If secular law allowed such a practice would it be okay for 21st century Christians to carry out this act?
    no the Bible states that a Christian is not permitted to take the life of another, we also don't observe a Sabbath or offer sacrifices at Jerusalem either, just saying. We are counselled to love our children.
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    17 Jan '13 17:241 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    In fact i stated that as a resident of the UK I am not permitted to own slaves because it breaks secular laws, that you choose to misrepresent what i stated is typical of the type of person you are, thank you for demonstrating it time and again, an insidious and arrogant slanderer.
    You did say that about the secular laws, but it appears that if you were to live in a country whose secular laws do not ban enslavement, you believe God would allow you to enslave people (called "owning slaves" ). This is from my reading of the page FMF refers to. So I am coming to this conclusion based on my reading of your words, not based on what FMF says about them. So FMF is not alone in his understanding of your position.

    May it be that you believe God would not allow such a country to exist or would not allow you to live in such a country? I am trying to understand why you think your words are not being read accurately. It should be easy for you to just say you do not believe God allows or approves of slavery anywhere today, even if a country's laws allow it.
  13. SubscriberFMF
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    17 Jan '13 17:26
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    ...we are talking of the Bibles allowance or otherwise of a Christian having jurisdiction to own slaves.
    In your interactions with other believers, including those outside your denomination, would you say your view on slavery in the twenty first century is a commonly held belief among Christians?
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    17 Jan '13 17:28
    Originally posted by JS357
    You did say that about the secular laws, but it appears that if you were to live in a country whose secular laws do not ban enslavement, you believe God would allow you to enslave people (called "owning slaves" ). This is from my reading of the page FMF refers to. So I am coming to this conclusion based on my reading of your words, not based on what FMF says a ...[text shortened]... believe God allows or approves of slavery anywhere today, even if a country's laws allow it.
    I have not denied the stance, my objection was to him making it personal to me. If anyone has Biblical knowledge or evidence to the contrary them produce it, otherwise, the statement stands. I challenge you or anyone else for clearly, first century Christians were permitted to own slaves, Onesipherous was one such slave and Paul counselled him to return to his master, now also a Christian.
  15. SubscriberProper Knob
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    17 Jan '13 17:29
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    no the Bible states that a Christian is not permitted to take the life of another, we also don't observe a Sabbath or offer sacrifices at Jerusalem either, just saying. We are counselled to love our children.
    Well that would contradict Galveston's claim that God's ways/laws/principles don't change.
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