Are Christians permitted to own slaves?

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I don't see FMF as "a troll uninterested in honest and legitimate discussion". So your statement is refuted, unequivocally.

I think FMF's point is entirely valid. Those who would hold the bible up as the literal word of god or an unquestioned source of moral guidance must presumably find themselves in support of the abominable (to my mind, anyway ...[text shortened]... ust presumably question the validity of scriptural guidance on this issue at the very least.

sorry you have simply stated your opinion, you have produced no reasons. You
were asked to provide evidence of FMF's honest and legitimate willingness to discuss
the issue, you have not done so because it dos not exists, otherwise you would have
produced it. You have failed, valid as your opinion might be, it is not proof in itself,
sorry, the statement stands. You also , like FMF have FAILED to make the distinction
between the allowance of a social structure and something instituted by God himself.

You have also failed to take into consideration the oppressive form of slavery and
made an accurate evaluation with the principles that are provided in the Bible for the
regulation and punishment for those who treat others inhumanely, your evaluation
therefore is fatally flawed and ultimately biased because the two are simply not
synonymous, perhaps if you had, you might have done better.

That Christ did not seek to reform it is interesting in itself, that he used slaves as
illustrations in his teaching and that first century Christians were slave owners and
slaves should provide food for thought. That it questions the validity of scriptural
guidance is a nonsense, for you fail to make any distinction between the types of
slavery that were practised among Christians and those who were not Christians.
FMF slyly and predictably excused himself on the basis that the question was not a
comparison between types of slavery, because it suits his trolling purposes, coward
that he is, who knows, perhaps you may be able to conduct yourself with more
honesty and integrity.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
sorry you have simply stated your opinion, you have produced no reasons. You
were asked to provide evidence of FMF's honest and legitimate input, you have not
done so because it dos not exists, otherwise you would have produced it. You have
failed, valid as your opinion might be, it is not proof in itself, sorry, the statement
stands. also ...[text shortened]... posts are an empty and hollow reflections of a need for attention due to a lack of self esteem.

The point with FMF is it's so beyond obvious that he only does this to "stir the pot" and it irritate as has been discussed by others here. We all know this.
"IF" he would rephase is questions differently. perhaps in a friendly way and accept the answers ones give and leave it at that even if he does not understand, it would be fine.
But he has ((((( NO))))) desire to learn from anyine and have a civil conversation with anyone.
So he can whine all he wants that most will not waist their time with him. 🙂

Originally posted by galveston75
"IF" [FMF] would rephase is questions differently. perhaps in a friendly way and accept the answers ones give and leave it at that even if he does not understand, it would be fine.

OK. Here you go. galveston75, are Christians permitted - now in the 21st century - by God to own slaves, if local secular laws allow it?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
...you fail to make any distinction between the types of slavery that were practised among Christians and those who were not Christians. FMF slyly and predictably excused himself on the basis that the question was not a
comparison between types of slavery....

In the discussion we had which led to this OP, and again on this thread, I have mentioned repeatedly that I was referring to the kind of slaves and slave owning practices that were described in the OT, as carried out by Hebrews, as governed by Mosaic Law.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
sorry you have simply stated your opinion, you have produced no reasons. You
were asked to provide evidence of FMF's honest and legitimate willingness to discuss
the issue, you have not done so because it dos not exists, otherwise you would have
produced it. You have failed, valid as your opinion might be, it is not proof in itself,
sorry, ...[text shortened]... e is, who knows, perhaps you may be able to conduct yourself with more
honesty and integrity.

I don't need to provide reasons. You stated that "everyone can see you are a troll uninterested in honest and legitimate discussion, there is nothing personal about stating facts." I pointed out that I did not view FMF in that way. Your statement is therefore refuted.

As to opinions, yours is no more valid than mine. You may view FMF as a troll, for whatever reason. I don't think that he is; I think he's just trying to illustrate what he sees as contradictions implicit in your position.

As to the subject of the OP, I can only restate my position succinctly; the OT advocates slavery. So either you support slavery, or you accept that in this issue at least, biblical moral guidance is flawed. And if biblical morality must be assessed within it's temporal and cultural millieu, then it is by definition not an objective morality. Pretty vital stuff, as far as I can see.

Furthermore, you do your case considerable disservice by your repeated resorting to ad-hominems.

Originally posted by FMF
Are Christians permitted to own slaves?

So far... it's 1 yes, 2 no, and 1 unwilling to say.

robbie reckons Christians are permitted to own slaves in accordance with the tenets of Mosaic Law and if local secular law permits it.

Suzianne and Zahlanzi reckon no, Christians are not permitted to own slaves.

And galveston75 has declined to say whether he agrees with robbie or whether he agrees with Suzianne and Zahlanzi.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I don't need to provide reasons. You stated that[b] "everyone can see you are a troll uninterested in honest and legitimate discussion, there is nothing personal about stating facts." I pointed out that I did not view FMF in that way. Your statement is therefore refuted.

As to opinions, yours is no more valid than mine. You may view FMF as a rmore, you do your case considerable disservice by your repeated resorting to ad-hominems.[/b]

Sadly its not, my statement had as its basis reason, to wit, FMF's unwillingness to discuss the implications of anything with regard to the question he himself posed, that being, what were the differences between oppressive slavery and the principles given to Christians for the treatment of slaves, etc etc etc, your opinion refutes nothing and until you do provide any reason, even a semblance of a reason, the statement that FMF is a troll, stands and remains and its not a comparison of opinions as you have erroneously attempted to assert, I have provided reasons, evident from an inspection of the thread, you, your opinion, valid in some quarters as it may be.

thank you for your lecture on morality, now if you will kindly address the point that I raise,

You have asserted that the Bibles guidance with regard to Christians who owned slaves as being a poor reflection on it as a source of guidance on the matter despite having provided not a single iota with regard to what those guiding principles might be. I am asking you now, what principles are you referring to which 'questions the validity of scriptural guidance on this issue', your words I believe.

Originally posted by avalanchethecat
I don't need to provide reasons. You stated that[b] "everyone can see you are a troll uninterested in honest and legitimate discussion, there is nothing personal about stating facts." I pointed out that I did not view FMF in that way. Your statement is therefore refuted.

As to opinions, yours is no more valid than mine. You may view FMF as a ...[text shortened]... rmore, you do your case considerable disservice by your repeated resorting to ad-hominems.[/b]

sigh, as has been pointed out, the question is with reference to Christians, that is, those persons not under the ordinances of the Mosaic law that you make reference to in the Hebrew portion of scripture.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
your lies pertain to your portrayal of the watchtowers stance, having accused it of lying, when clearly it has done nothing of the sort, shall i retrieve your text?

By all means, provide the text. Do you really think that I'm not going to call your bluff?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
By all means, provide the text. Do you really think that I'm not going to call your bluff?

you accused the watchtower of lying, its there, find t yourself. Its not a bluff.

What does it say about the Watchtower Society that they would tell such a bald faced lie as above? ToO

so waz up too, you need a daily fix of attention to bolster your low self esteem like our friend FMF.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you accused the watchtower of lying, its there, find t yourself. Its not a bluff.

lol. Now you're going to bluff about bluffing?

The bluff from your previous post:

shall i retrieve your text?

I'm calling your bluff. Show where I lied. You made an accusation. If you can't support it, then your accusation is false.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
lol. Now you're going to bluff about bluffing?

The bluff from your previous post:

shall i retrieve your text?

I'm calling your bluff. Show where I lied. You made an accusation. If you can't support it, then your accusation is false. But then, it certainly wouldn't be the first time you've made a false accusation.

I produced your slanderous accusation above, those were your words, were they not?
accusing the watchtower of lying, well, its a lie, plain and simple and there is not much
you can do about it now ToO

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Sadly its not, my statement had as its basis reason, to wit, FMF's unwillingness to discuss the implications of anything with regard to the question he himself posed, that being, what were the differences between oppressive slavery and the principles given to Christians for the treatment of slaves, etc etc etc, your opinion refutes nothing and until ...[text shortened]... to which 'questions the validity of scriptural guidance on this issue', your words I believe.

Whether YOU think FMF is a troll is not the question.

YOU stated that EVERYONE can see that FMF is a troll and THAT is wrong.

The fact that we are telling you we don't think FMF is a troll IS not just evidence
but proof positive that that is wrong.

The fact that you are also factually wrong about FMF actually being a troll is beside
the point.

What was objected to by avalanchethecat and myself was your claim that you had general
support and agreement from the rest of us in your assertion that FMF is a troll.

You are entitled to your opinion, however wrong it may be.
You are not entitled to claim support for that opinion when you don't actually have it.

That is called lying.

You do it a lot.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I produced your slanderous accusation above, those were your words, were they not?
accusing the watchtower of lying, well, its a lie, plain and simple and there is not much
you can do about it now ToO

Like I said:

Show where I lied. You made an accusation. If you can't support it, then your accusation is false.

All you've done thus far amounts to reiterating your accusation. Show how it is a lie. You made the accusation. So now back it up.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Whether YOU think FMF is a troll is not the question.

YOU stated that EVERYONE can see that FMF is a troll and THAT is wrong.

The fact that we are telling you we don't think FMF is a troll IS not just evidence
but proof positive that that is wrong.

The fact that you are also factually wrong about FMF actually being a troll is beside
the poin ...[text shortened]... for that opinion when you don't actually have it.

That is called lying.

You do it a lot.

What you seem to fail to understand is that RC lies about lying. Doesn't that cancel it out? It's like taking the negative of a negative.