Originally posted by FMFYour world must be supremely boring, with everything in stark black and white.
I ended up writing the following words on a different thread in a discussion with sonship; I think they actually belong on this thread. So here they are.
I have stated my position. Slavery is an immoral abomination, comparable with murder, kidnapping and rape. I am curious that there are Christians who would argue that it is permitted by God, and other Christ ...[text shortened]... does not do so unequivocally - then I think it is an abhorrent and despicable state of affairs.
Most opinions exist in a world of living color, but you can't even acknowledge that because it opposes your safe world of black and white.
Maybe you should hold your own life to the standard you hold the Bible up to.
Which is it? Black or White?
Originally posted by FMFI don't think owning slaves is something Christians should seek after, even thought it may not be specificaly prohibited. However, I think a Christian might wish to buy a slave out of compassion and with the intention of setting the slave free as soon as possible. I do not see anything immoral about that attitude.
Are they permitted by God to do so?
Is it your understanding of the New Covenant such that slave ownership is in accordance with God's Law?
Originally posted by Suzianneeating pork or being a republican is to be debated whether it is wrong or right. slavery isn't. sometimes it is necessary as a form of punishment and then only the state may the "owner" but no human being must ever again be born into slavery and no human being must ever be sold to another human being.
Your world must be supremely boring, with everything in stark black and white.
Most opinions exist in a world of living color, but you can't even acknowledge that because it opposes your safe world of black and white.
Maybe you should hold your own life to the standard you hold the Bible up to.
Which is it? Black or White?
Originally posted by ZahlanziI am not ashamed of any Biblical principles, i have demonstrated that within the framework of the social institution, Christians were counselled to treat those in servitude, with kindness and as beloved brothers, what is there to be ashamed of, nothing.
if you support slavery as it was portrayed in the bible or how the americans and others believed to be justified in the 18th and 19th century, you ought to be ashamed
Originally posted by SuzianneSlavery is abhorrent. It is an abomination. It is a pinnacle of inhumanity. I condemn it unequivocally and without reservation. If this stance is "supremely boring" to you, and does not have enough "living colour" for you, then that is a matter for you. It is interesting how, on a topic as serious as this, you've chosen to dedicate such a big part of your contribution to demonstrating your personal animosity and making ad hominem remarks about me, and so little of your contribution has been about addressing the issue. We are talking about slavery here and there you are, intent on being condescending and trying to score personal points. It is very interesting.
Your world must be supremely boring, with everything in stark black and white.
Most opinions exist in a world of living color, but you can't even acknowledge that because it opposes your safe world of black and white.
Maybe you should hold your own life to the standard you hold the Bible up to.
Which is it? Black or White?
Originally posted by SuziannePhilemon 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20 were introduced by robbie - allegedly - as evidence of the claim of his that is the topic of this thread. I do not claim they "further [my] argument". Have you even been following the substance of the claims that robbie has been making on Christians' behalf about the legitimacy of slavery?
If you're going to even ask about the Philemon and 1 Peter quotes, then be prepared to answer the question of how you think they further your argument. Or maybe shut up about them.
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Originally posted by SuzianneYou seem to be getting mixed up between questions that get answered and questions that do NOT get answered and get ignored.
Because of course, you are only here to pound and pound and pound and pound us with your question, even after having been answered many times.
Here is a sample of point blank questions I have asked that have been simply ignored over the last few pages, in no particular order:
Christians have the God given right to own slaves in the twenty first century ? Where are the ordinances you were talking about?
Where can we see the Law that replaced Mosaic Law in the matter of owning slaves and its moral basis? Is it in the NT somewhere?
Where is the "law" laid out in the Bible with which God gives the right to Christians to own slaves?
If the old Law no longer applied, where is the new Law laid out?
Do Christians have a God given right to own someone who does not accept his or her slavery voluntarily?
How can you extrapolate from someone called Philemon having a slave called Onesimus in the first century, that Christians have the God given right to own slaves in the twenty first century ? Where are the ordinances you were talking about?
On what basis was Paul, the author Biblical passage, accepting the right of Philemon to own slaves?
On what basis do you claim Philemon had the right to own slaves?
Where in the NT is slavery described or explained in this way? Where in the New Covenant is "slavery" defined in this way? [ a slave is free after he has paid a debt]
Where in the Bible is slavery explained as being a means of punishing or reducing crime among those who have been enslaved? Is this laid out in the NT? If so where?
Is a Christian owning slaves being sinful?
You may claim these questions have "been answered many times" but they have not been answered.
Originally posted by RJHindsDo you see anything "immoral" about the institution of slavery itself - humans as property, buying and selling humans, owners deciding when they do and don't have their freedom etc.? Do you see anything immoral about the institution?
However, I think a Christian might wish to buy a slave out of compassion and with the intention of setting the slave free as soon as possible. I do not see anything immoral about that attitude.
Originally posted by ZahlanziIf you think eating pork is wrong, you don't have to eat it. Likewise, if you do not want to be a Republican you can be something else. Like suzianne said, everything does not have to be either black or white, God has given us choices.
eating pork or being a republican is to be debated whether it is wrong or right. slavery isn't. sometimes it is necessary as a form of punishment and then only the state may the "owner" but no human being must ever again be born into slavery and no human being must ever be sold to another human being.
Originally posted by FMFYes, but I see something wrong in many things, like abortion and being a Muslim instead of a Christian. You have never cared what I believed was right or wrong in the past, so there is no need to start now. 😏
Do you see anything "immoral" about the institution of slavery itself - humans as property, buying and selling humans, owners deciding when they do and don't have their freedom etc.? Do you see anything immoral about the institution?
Originally posted by SuzianneFMF is among other things, a real mystery to me. Something somewhere as turned as you say his world to "black and white" with his reasoning and viewpoints of this world and how he views other humans. I guess he feels we should all have just black and white, yes and no answers to his questions. He doesn't seem to realize it just doesn't work that way.
Because of course, you are only here to pound and pound and pound and pound us with your question, even after having been answered many times.
If you're going to even ask about the Philemon and 1 Peter quotes, then be prepared to answer the question of how you think they further your argument. Or maybe shut up about them.
And for God's sake, please s ...[text shortened]... ple on the topic instead of going back to the well for the 200th time to re-ask your question.
I've learned to give him the best and honest answer I can and then run as it will never end at that.
How he processes it is up to him and if it's not good enough then he needs to do some homework on his own to hopefully find the answers he wants.
Maybe he makes it just tooooooooo complicated? Could be.
Originally posted by galveston75Slavery strikes me as a "black and white" issue. I have a moral clarity about the issue. I condemn it because it is an abomination. If you cannot join me in condemning it, can you instead tell me where the moral basis for the institution of slavery is laid out in the New Covenant? Is it in the New Testament somewhere? If so where?
FMF is among other things, a real mystery to me. Something somewhere as turned as you say his world to "black and white" with his reasoning and viewpoints of this world and how he views other humans. I guess he feels we should all have just black and white, yes and no answers to his questions. He doesn't seem to realize it just doesn't work that way.
I ...[text shortened]... ully find the answers he wants.
Maybe he makes it just tooooooooo complicated? Could be.