1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipNo one has suggested that "God is commanding [or] instructing" a slave owner to beat slaves. That would be a red herring, sonship, or a straw man. Take your pick. According to Exodus 21:20-21, a slave owner is permitted by God to beat a slave, right?
So off the top let us discard with any notion that God is commanding, endorsing, instructing, physical punishment upon a slave / servant / employee.
Originally posted by sonshipOh right, 'punish' as in 'execute', I gotcha. So the bible advocates the death penalty for Jews who beat their slaves to death, but not if the slave dies of injuries sustained during yesterday's beating? Does it specify what punishm... no, let's say sanction is to be applied in the latter case?
[b]Exodus 21:20-21 - "And if a man strikes his male servant or his female servant with a rod, and the servant dies under his hand, he shall be punished.
But if he survives a day or twoi, he shall not be punished, for he is his [money; or poperty].
1.) This is not a command of God telling the employer/master to go and strick his male or female ...[text shortened]... Malachi 2:16)[/b], God made provision for some social customs which He knew would occur.[/b]
I love the way this god has to moderate his instructions based on 'social customs' where slavery is concerned, whereas he's fine with damning you to hell if you happen to covet your neighbour's ass - not like that happens a lot in any society, right?
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFYour line of persistant questioning about "What will God permit?" is really not the best way to get to nature of the Christian life.
OK, so kidnapping is forbidden. Is a Christian, where local secular laws do not forbid it, permitted by God to [b]purchase a slave as property?[/b]
You know just because I have the RIGHT to do something does not make it RIGHT.
Country by country, with the vast variety of govenment systems on the earth, there may be Christians under different kinds of laws here and there.
As a Christian I may move to or become a believer in a nation which has an oppresive law. I may have a right to do this or that. Okay, "Does God permit this?" "Does God permit that?"
In some sense you might argue because I have that right under that nation's government, it has somehow been permitted by God. As a believer in Jesus my governing principle is not "How much can I do?" It is what does the Lord within me want me to do.
And being given the right to do this or that does not make it right in Christ's eyes to do it.
I may be opening up a thread discussion of the one NT book solely decicated to the subject of a runaway slave - Philemon. I've been looking at it lately. Quite, quite interesting.
Originally posted by sonshipOh yes it is. They only feel "persistent" because you dodge answering them. [e.g. Is a Christian owning slaves being sinful?"]
Your line of persistant questioning about "What will God permit?" is really not the best way to get to nature of the Christian life.
Why isn't slavery forbidden? I condemn slavery without reservation. Can you join me in this? What am I to make of a religionist dogma that permits it?
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipYou don't need to use sleight of hand rhetoric about how "in some sense [FMF] might argue..." this or that because of this or that. I am not talking about any "rights under [a] nation's government". Forget this "nation's government" or that "nation's government", the fact that the right to own slaves has "somehow been permitted by God" has been asserted on this thread using the Bible. Address THAT, and - please - enough with the red herrings.
In some sense you might argue because I have that right under that nation's government, it has somehow been permitted by God.
1 edit
Originally posted by Proper KnobStill? Nowadays?
It seems kidnapping men is not allowed, but the kidnapping of women is fair game, especially virgins.
I keep asking about the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, but most of the Christians engaged in this discussion have been dodging and stonewalling.
Originally posted by FMF
Oh yes it is. They only feel "persistent" because you dodge answering them. [e.g. Is a Christian owning slaves being sinful?"]
Why isn't slavery forbidden? I condemn slavery without reservation. Can you join me in this? What am I to make of a religionist dogma that permits it?
Oh yes it is. They only feel "persistent" because you dodge answering them. [e.g. Is a Christian owning slaves being sinful?"]
Whether you own a slave or don't own a slave you need to confess that you are a sinner in need of salvation.
This is not a dodge. This is getting to the point of the central teaching of the New Testament.
I think your attitude is to convince yourself that you have a more rigthteous attitude about a social issue then God does, therefore it follows that you should be a non-theist or non-Christian.
You are asking me to to help your self righteous rationalization.
"At least I'm not so bad because I condemn slavery."
Why isn't slavery forbidden? I condemn slavery without reservation. Can you join me in this? What am I to make of a religionist dogma that permits it?
I condemn slavery too. Especially as that involving -
1.) teaching the slave is less human than the master AS the Southern slavers did.
2.) kidnap people, stealing them, to be sold as slaves AS the Southern slavers did.
3.) teaching that it was God's will for whites to enslave blacks to inforce some curse on Canaan the grandson of Ham, AS the Southern slavers did.
4.) Use female slaves to satisfy my lust when I was bored with my wife AS the Southern slavers did.
5.) Beat a slave.
6.) Turn over a runaway slave back to his master by force.
I condemn slavery as much as you do.
I saw your lilly white photograph in your profile.
Excuse me. My ancestors were black African slaves.
I think I know a little about it.
At the same time I am a proper biblical reader. I will not take the emotionally charged word "SLAVE" and not discern the nuances of application that word had in the Bible. I will appreciate the historical distinctions between different kinds of servitude recorded in the Bible.
I thought you said you appreciated that kind of nuanced detail.
Anyway, I condemn slavery more than you do probably. Or at least it has directly touched my life's backround probably more than it has touched yours.
Originally posted by sonshipMore dodging.
Whether you own a slave or don't own a slave you need to confess that you are a sinner in need of salvation.
This is not a dodge. This is getting to the point of the central teaching of the New Testament.
Is a Christian owning slaves being sinful?
Originally posted by FMF
You don't need to use sleight of hand rhetoric about how "in some sense [FMF] might argue..." this or that because of this or that. I am not talking about any "rights under [a] nation's government". Forget this "nation's government" or that "nation's government", the fact that the right to own slaves has "somehow been permitted by God" has been asserted [b]on th ...[text shortened]... ad using the Bible. Address THAT, and - please - enough with the red herrings.[/b]
the fact that the right to own slaves has "somehow been permitted by God" has been asserted on this thread using the Bible. Address THAT, and - please - enough with the red herrings.
I'll address mostly what I wrote and what someone asked of me.
I have not carefully reviewed everything, ie. galveston a Johovah's Witness has written on the subject or Robbie.
I have not read from start to end the entire discussion.
I will clarify for the most part what I believe.
Originally posted by sonshipI said robbie had cited Philemom 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20.
I have not carefully reviewed everything, ie. galveston a Johovah's Witness has written on the subject or Robbie.
I have not read from start to end the entire discussion.
I will clarify for the most part what I believe.
You asked me to explain Philemom 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20.
I said robbie had cited them.
You fell silent.
Later you claim you had "answered" the Philemom 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20 thing.
It was just there in the space of 4 of 5 posts.
Why are you behaving like this?
1 edit
Originally posted by FMF
I said robbie had cited Philemom 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20.
You asked me to explain Philemom 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20.
I said robbie had cited them.
You fell silent.
Later you claim you had "answered" the Philemom 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20 thing.
It was just there in the space of 4 of 5 posts.
Why are you behaving like this?
I said robbie had cited Philemom 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20.
At this time I will not go back an examine what robbie the JW said in reference to these passages.
You asked me to explain Philemom 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20.
I asked you to pinpoint which verses furnished a concept of a God Given Right to have slaves.
I wanted an expounding on the passages from you.
You want me to go argue with Robbie about this ?
Robbie's
I said robbie had cited them.
You fell silent.
Later you claim you had "answered" the Philemom 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20 thing.
It was just there in the space of 4 of 5 posts.
Why are you behaving like this?
I am not sure what you mean. Honestly.
But I'll tell you what. I'm going to humor you and give you a binary answer.
I want to see where you take it if I give you a simplistic answer.
Owning a slave for the Christian is sinful.
I speak mostly of that kind of slavery practiced in the Atlantic Slave Trade involving the horrors of those things which the Abolitionists managed to eradicate from social policy in the US.
Let's start right here. What would you now say ?
Originally posted by sonshipYou fell silent when I told you Philemom 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20 were robbie's citations.I said robbie had cited Philemom 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20.
At this time I will not go back an examine what robbie the JW said in reference to these passages.
You asked me to explain Philemom 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20.
I asked you to pinpoint which verses furnished a concept of a God Given Right to have slav ...[text shortened]... cate from social policy in the US.
Let's start right here. What would you now say ?