Originally posted by galveston75Where in the NT is slavery described or explained in this way?
Think outside your box and see the fairness in God instituting this.
If your neighbor stole your car but was caught but could not pay it back or replace it. Why not make him work for you until he has payed his debt?
Now get the point even farther. Not only do you get repaid, you get his services and he would no doubt never do such a thing again nor would others thinking of doing this type crime actually go thru with it.
Originally posted by galveston75Where in the Bible is slavery explained as being a means of punishing or reducing crime among those who have been enslaved? Is this laid out in the NT? If so where?
Now get the point even farther. Not only do you get repaid, you get his services and he would no doubt never do such a thing again nor would others thinking of doing this type crime actually go thru with it.
Originally posted by FMFI think you will find that permitting something is far different than championing it. I think God permits a great many things to occur that is suboptimal. That does not mean he desires them nor does it mean that there is not a better road to take.
This thread is not about metaphors using the word "slave" and "slavery". What we are talking about is actual enslavement where one human being owns another. What we are talking about, specifically, is Christians owning slaves. Philemon 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20 have been cited as proof that the right of Christians to do so is God given. Do you concur that these two snippets from the NT text provide the moral basis for slavery?
Personally, I think the Mosaic law started us all on a path that eventually made slavery what it is today, which is abhorrent. The world would be a much darker day without a "weekend" or Sabbath and without the message of the gospels in regards to charity and helping those in need.
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Originally posted by whodeyThe opposite of "permitting" is "forbidding" not "championing". I have not used the word "championing" in this discussion. Your version of God had the choice of "permitting" or "forbidding" slavery, and people who subscribe to the moral guidance provided by the OT know that God - according to Hebrew folklore and the literature the Hebrews wrote - permitted His followers to own slaves. He did not forbid it. The question this thread poses is this: Are Christians (not Hebrews) permitted by God to own slaves or are they forbidden from owning slaves?
I think you will find that permitting something is far different than championing it.
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Originally posted by FMF
If, as you say, it is "abhorrent" for Christians to own slaves today how can they claim that God still permits slavery?
If, as you say, it is "abhorrent" for Christians to own slaves today how can they claim that God still permits slavery?
Do you see slavery existing in Revelation 21 and 22 at the climax and culmination of all of God's work in history ?
If you do not then I suggest you realize that a world free from slavery is a goal towards which God is moving.
The same would be true for sin, death, disease, wars, sickness, tears, and all negative things and all unrighteousness. All these things are abhorent to most of us today.
God is moving the world in that direction. He wants us to move in that direction.
Originally posted by FMFI ended up writing the following words on a different thread in a discussion with sonship; I think they actually belong on this thread. So here they are.
If, as you say, it is "abhorrent" for Christians to own slaves today how can they claim that God still permits slavery?
I have stated my position. Slavery is an immoral abomination, comparable with murder, kidnapping and rape. I am curious that there are Christians who would argue that it is permitted by God, and other Christians who beat around the bush to an extraordinary degree - and with an intriguing lack of moral clarity - when asked if they too believe that it is permitted by God. If your religion does not forbid slavery - and does not do so unequivocally - then I think it is an abhorrent and despicable state of affairs.
Originally posted by sonshipBut in the meantime Philemon 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20 are proof that the right of Christians to own slaves is a God given one? Or do you disagree with the claim that robbie has laid out on this thread on behalf of Christians?
God is moving the world in that direction. He wants us to move in that direction.
It is here Friday night 2013 AD.
The New Testement says that "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." It is clear from the Bible that all are sinners and all are in need of repentance and salvation in Christ from the guilt of sin and the power of sin.
Does the slave owner need to come to Christ? Yes.
Does the slave need to come to Christ? Yes.
Does the ethicist who cannot stand that slavery is still practiced anywhere in the world need to come to Christ? Yes.
What about the Christian who has a slave ?
He has come to Christ already. He needs more Christ.
He needs more Christ for transformation in his soul.
Originally posted by sonshipIs a Christian owning slaves being sinful?
The New Testement says that [b]"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." It is clear from the Bible that all are sinners and all are in need of repentance and salvation in Christ from the guilt of sin and the power of sin.[/b]
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Originally posted by FMF
But in the meantime Philemon 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20 are proof that the right of Christians to own slaves is a God given one? Or do you disagree with the claim that robbie has laid out on this thread on behalf of Christians?
But in the meantime Philemon 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20 are proof that the right of Christians to own slaves is a God given one? Or do you disagree with the claim that robbie has laid out on this thread on behalf of Christians?
Now you'll have to go through a little labor.
Show me how Philemom 10-17 and 1 Peter 2:18-20 are proof that the Christian has a "God given right" to own slaves.
Let me see your exegesis on these passages demonstrating that.