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Originally posted by avalanchethecat
Oh right, 'punish' as in 'execute', I gotcha. So the bible advocates the death penalty for Jews who beat their slaves to death, but not if the slave dies of injuries sustained during yesterday's beating? Does it specify what punishm... no, let's say sanction is to be applied in the latter case?
I love the way this god has to moderate his in pen to covet your neighbour's ass - not like that happens a lot in any society, right?
Oh right, 'punish' as in 'execute', I gotcha. So the bible advocates the death penalty for Jews who beat their slaves to death, but not if the slave dies of injuries sustained during yesterday's beating?
In those days it was UNDERSTOOD ... that there would be DIFFICULT CASES.
That is why, (without citing every passage), Moses told his immediate co-leaders to see to simple cases. IF a case was TOO HARD for them, they should come to him.
You have to therefore realize the realism of the situation. Besides the laws given there was the recognition that harder cases, more subtle cases, difficult cases, not so cut and dry - would occur.
So hunting for interesting hypotheticals doesn't show too much. It only confirms that Moses was right to give the people heads up that judges and priests were to also be among them helping to navigate their way through what God had given at Mt. Sinai.
We do not know how all subtle cases were handled. God made provision for very compexed situations of perhaps overlapping principles and "hard cases".
"If a case is too complicated for you to judge between one kind of homicide and another, or between one kind of civil suit and another, or between one kind of assault and another, being disputed cases within your gates, then you shall arise and go up to the place which Jehovah your God will choose;
And you shall come to the Levitical priests and to the judge who is [presiding] in those days and investigate [the matter]; and they shall declare to you the sentence of judgment.
And you shall do according to the word of the sentence that they declare to you from that place which Jehovah will choose; and you shall be certain to do according to all that they instruct you and according to the judgment which they speak to you; you shall not turn aside to the right or to the left from the sentence that they declare to you." (Deuteronomy 17:8-11)
Originally posted by sonshipHmm I SEE. What a GOOD job this god of yours didn't just CONDEMN the abominable practice of slavery outright AND thus clarify the issue, removing all of those 'DIFFICULT' cases at a stroke, eh?Oh right, 'punish' as in 'execute', I gotcha. So the bible advocates the death penalty for Jews who beat their slaves to death, but not if the slave dies of injuries sustained during yesterday's beating?
In those days it was UNDERSTOOD ... that there would be DIFFICULT CASES.
That is why, (without citing every passage), Moses told ...[text shortened]... or to the left from the sentence that they declare to you." (Deuteronomy 17:8-11) [/b]
Originally posted by avalanchethecatAre you guys seriously not reading the answers Robbie is giving you? The Bible is not saying on any level to treat someone who is in a slaves position in the way you and the others here are implying such as rape and torture.
Right, right. And it's ok to beat the slaves almost to death, so long as they don't die during the beating itself, because, well that's how you express brotherly affection in a slave/master relationship, right? Society permitting, obviously.
The Bible clearly says to treat them with love should a brother find himself in this situation that he owes you something and has no way to repay other then to serve out this debt in simply just working it off.
If that person was mistreated in anyway then the master would be punished and even seriously if need be.
Robbie and the Bible are in no way talking about the ugly and inhumane slavery that occurd here in this country of the USA by so called Christians. It was a truly horrible thing that was done here as well as many other parts of the world throughout history.
Perhaps you and the others that are not listening to his explinations need to back off and listen with a clear mind of what he is saying.
Originally posted by FMF
I say this: Slavery is abhorrent. Will you join me in condemning it?
I say this: Slavery is abhorrent. Will you join me in condemning it?
Sure it is abhorrent.
In fifth grade I got embassessed. I was the only black kid in class. The homework was to go back and trace your family tree a couple a hundred years.
I couldn't. Who knew whose slave my great great great grandfather was?
My father explained why we American blacks couldn't trace our family back too far.
Since that time considerable research has been done "Roots" style in my family.
Yea, I agree slavery is abhorrent.
Worse for me, is rejecting the Righteous Son of God who died for me a helpless sinner, that I might be saved. He PAID my dept to the law of God.
I am forgiven because of that. I am free from eternal judgment.
Will you join me in saying that me rejecting His loving sacrifice on my guilty behalf, refusing to own Him as my Savior and Lord, is unthinkable also ?
Or is that ... different ?
Originally posted by FMFLet me ask you a question, I know you will not answer, but here goes.
I say this: Slavery is abhorrent. Will you join me in condemning it?
If your son or daughter had comitted a crime against your neighbor, lets say steal their nice new 60" flat screen TV and sold it to another person.
Now that TV is gone but your child was found guilty of this crime and now has to be punished as they should be.
Would you choose 5 years in a prison with all kinds of wonderfull roomies to hang out with for your child, or simply letting that child go live with that neighbor who is a decent person and will treat your child with full respect and care for a time period that will be in compensation for that crime. You know to work it off until paid?
Maybe if you can possible think outside your abhorance of the slavery you assume the Bible is speaking of, which it is not, you just might see some logic here. Maybe? I doubt it.
Now answer my question............................
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Hmm I SEE. What a GOOD job this god of yours didn't just CONDEMN the abominable practice of slavery outright AND thus clarify the issue, removing all of those 'DIFFICULT' cases at a stroke, eh?
You simply do not understand. But worse than that, you don't want to understand.
You and I do not have it in us to live up to the righteous demand of God in regard to loving Him with all our hearts OR loving our neighber as ourselves..
Don't you think the very FIRST commandment to love God with the whole being and to love our neighbor as ourselves puts a stop to the inclination to own a slave ?
"You shall not covet ..." PERIOD !
You shall not be in jealous envy of the possessions of another man ... PERIOD!
Your attempts to condemn the law of God are silly.
What are you going to do when you come before God boasting "At least I wasn't for slavery in any regard."
What if God, who has an infallible record of your every doing says " Oh, here. Let me show you all the people you mistreated as if they were your slaves. Let me show you what you did relatives. Remember this one? Let me show you the people of the opposite sex you used. Remember this. Let me show you co-workers on the job you abused. Remember this? "
Buddy, at the very best best you should confess that you're a sinner who happens to not like slavery. It is vain for you to try to pump yourself up more good than God.
"He who commits sin is a slave to sin"
If you hate slavery, why not look to Christ to free you from the sins you are enslaved to?
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This is fascinating.
Let us suppose for a moment that the Bible made no mention of slavery. I think most, if not all, Christians would not equivocate for a second to condemn slavery outright. They would cite the teachings of Christ to support this.
Now suppose an atheist came along and suggested that the slavery which was practised in the past by some cultures should not be condemned as immoral because:
1 The law only applied to some people, not others
2 It was more akin to indentured servitude
3 It needed to be assess in the context of society at the time
4 It was a lot better than the type of slavery in the US
5 There were laws which restricted how badly you could treat the slaves
and suppose that the same atheist also refused to condemn slavery outright today when challenged.
How do you think those same Christians would react to this? I suspect they would argue that this lack of morality was all that could be expected from someone lacking any spiritual guidance.
It is astonishing to watch how you are tieing yourselves up in knots to avoid saying something as simple as 'I condemn slavery outright'.
Originally posted by sonshipYou just can't grasp that this one issue debases your entire position, can you? You just keep on coming back with all this incessant, irrelevant verbiage. In a way it's admirable, this studied avoidance. In other ways, less so.
Hmm I SEE. What a GOOD job this god of yours didn't just CONDEMN the abominable practice of slavery outright AND thus clarify the issue, removing all of those 'DIFFICULT' cases at a stroke, eh?
You simply do not understand. But worse than that, you don't want to understand.
You and I do not have it in us to live up to the righteo ...[text shortened]... te slavery, why not look to Christ to free you from the sins you are enslaved to?
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Originally posted by avalanchethecatActually, its those very principles which ended the practice. I suspect, in its infancy the social institution was practised, but as it became more and more apparent that it was contrary to Christian principles the practice was opposed. The Bible does not give permission for a Christian to own slaves, it merely cites that it happened. The fact that neither you nor FMF can produce a single statement testifying to the fact that it was a right for a Christian to own slaves is rather telling, what form will your opposition to the inspired word take now seeing that it was the application of Christian principles which eventually abolished the practice?
Those christian principles which include permission to own slaves? And you take your moral guidance from this book which grants you that permission?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieLeviticus 25:44
Actually, its those very principles which ended the practice. I suspect, in its infancy the social institution was practised, but as it became more and more apparent that it was contrary to Christian principles the practice was opposed. The Bible does not give permission for a Christian to own slaves, it merely cites that it happened. The fact tha ...[text shortened]... ing that it was the application of Christian principles which eventually abolished the practice?
"...you may buy..."
Bible. Permission given.
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Actually, its those very principles which ended the practice. I suspect, in its infancy the social institution was practised, but as it became more and more apparent that it was contrary to Christian principles the practice was opposed. The Bible does not give permission for a Christian to own slaves, it merely cites that it happened. The fact that neither you nor FMF can produce a single statement testifying to the fact that it was a right for a Christian to own slaves is rather telling, what form will your opposition to the inspired word take now seeing that it was the application of Christian principles which eventually abolished the practice?
If Christianity was a driving force opposing slavery, why did God not indicate in the OT that he was against it?
He was willing and able to condemn many other practices he considered immoral. Surely, if slavery is immoral, this is a biggie, not something you get round to when you have time?
Do you really think two men sleeping together is worse than slavery?
Originally posted by avalanchethecatyes but that was under a different covenant with regard to a different people, as i have stated before this covenant ended and a new one was instituted. If you can find an single iota in scripture where a Christian is given permission to own a slave, please do so now and i will be glad to examine the text.
Leviticus 25:44
"...you may buy..."
Bible. Permission given.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI thought JW's were all about disobeying a secular law if it goes against God's law?
In fact i stated that as a resident of the UK I am not permitted to own slaves because it breaks secular laws, that you choose to misrepresent what i stated is typical of the type of person you are, thank you for demonstrating it time and again, an insidious and arrogant slanderer.
Manny
Originally posted by robbie carrobieBut the principle remains though right?
yes but that was under a different covenant with regard to a different people, as i have stated before this covenant ended and a new one was instituted. If you can find an single iota in scripture where a Christian is given permission to own a slave, please do so now and i will be glad to examine the text.