Astrotheology

Originally posted by chinking58
When I simply think of the various unfounded premises behind this crap I gag. I'll try to expose a few.

[b]Brief compendium: The Sun is the central deity in most religions.
Simply not true. The Bible teaches nothing about the sun being central to the teaching of Jesus. In fact, some people speculate that God made light on the first day and the ...[text shortened]... out the whole age will be in 2012! How long does a dawning take anyway?

Like I said, bunk.[/b]

I'm sorry that I only briefly replied to your post, chinking.

Originally posted by chinking58
When I simply think of the various unfounded premises behind this crap I gag. I'll try to expose a few.

When I read the ignorance from where you derive your objections, I want to ignore you. For the sake of completeness, I'll try do a better job of trying to explain why the premises are founded, though:

Simply not true. The Bible teaches nothing about the sun being central to the teaching of Jesus.

Correct. The bible teaches nothing about the Sun being the central figure in the story. Jesus represents the Sun in the allegory of the NT. Do you need a definition of the word allegory?

So someone found a way to correlate the sun to Jesus. Does that make the connection somehow absolute? Jesus wept. Does that make a fountain symbolic of Him? Sometimes Jesus was up all night. Does that bind Him forever to being like the moon?

Yes. No. No. I realize these are incomplete answers, but your inane questions were rhetorical anyway.

Who made this up? Must I recognize it as some factual, unavoidable truth? There is nothing so obscure and subjective as the constellations! So some ancient pagans decided there were twelve. I say there are 32, and that they all look like chess pieces. (Only I can tell the white from the black, but take my word for it, I'm up a knight, a rook and 3 pawns!)

Made what up? That there are 12 siginifcant constellations that have been observed for millenia? You can say there are 32 constellations made up of chess pieces if you wish, but astronomers since long before Jesus have denoted 12. That is an unavoidable truth...it is neither 'obscure' or 'subjective'.

So our history and astronomy are so good that we know the date that Moses condemned the worship of the golden bull? And then built the golden ram? Oh wait, that never happened. So what. That ancient pagan dude named the next constellation ram, so we gotta work it in here somewhere.

What never happened? That Moses is associated with the Ram? Or that he condemened worship of the Bull god(s) after he came down from the mountain? Or that the precession of the most recent three equinoxes were Pisces, Aries, and Taurus (in reverse order)?

What does this even mean? The age of Pisces. So there's a bunch of stars and someone looking at them from earth imagined they can be arranged into the form of a fish. Next we have the earth set against that group? As seen from where? Does not the perspective of the viewer bear any importance in these matters? Doesn't the view from Tatooine matter? Maybe Pisces looks like a poodle from there, who knows.

The Age of Pisces means that on the morning of the vernal equinox, Pisces is the constellation that appears directly above the rising sun. Maybe Pisces does look like a poodle to you. That's fine. It has, however, been associated with two fish pointing in opposite directions for thousands and thousands of years.

I thought the age of Aquarius has been dawning since the 60's, and now I find out the whole age will be in 2012! How long does a dawning take anyway?

Cute. I suppose you're mockingly referring to Hair and the song 'Dawning of the Age of Aquarius'. Precession does not function like a lightswitch. It takes 72 years for the Sun to move one degree through the constellation, so the 'Dawning of the Age of Aquarius' has been apparent since 1940. By 2012, we will be a fraction of one degree in to Aquarius.

Like I said, bunk.

Like I said: ignorant.

Originally posted by David C
Are you familiar with John Anthony West and Robert Schoch's theory for evidence of water erosion on the body and enclosure of the Sphinx? Egyptologists assert the Sphinx was initially carved during the 4th Dynasty as it looks today, which I find implausible due to simple visual examination. Here is an excellent photo of what I mean:

http://www.msjc.edu/a ...[text shortened]... carved at a later date. This is not topical in this thread, though, so I won't comment further.

notice the sharp line of the hair, and a similar line demarcating the hind quarter, both at similar angles. But that isn't my field so take that as just an observation of the given picture.

That there are 12 siginifcant constellations that have been observed for millenia? You can say there are 32 constellations made up of chess pieces if you wish, but astronomers since long before Jesus have denoted 12.

Mmm... what do you mean by significant? The number of constellations by far exceeds 12 as noted by astronomers. The importance given to those 12 is not more than astrology and astronomers should be left out of these arguments, IMO.

Originally posted by Palynka
Mmm... what do you mean by significant? The number of constellations by far exceeds 12 as noted by astronomers. The importance given to those 12 is not more than astrology and astronomers should be left out of these arguments, IMO.

Yes, you are certainly correct. As pointed out earlier, of course, 'ancient astronomer' and 'ancient astrologer' are synonymous. We should clearly leave both modern astronomers and astrologists out of the discussion entirely. While we can only speculate what the ancient astroXers considered significant, we do know they probably lacked modern astronomy's advanced electronic equipment. What we do know, is that somewhere down the line, 12 constellations became 'canon', for lack of a better term.

Although, as frogstomp pointed out, Orion seems to be a fly in that particular ointment. hmmmm.

Originally posted by Palynka
[b]That there are 12 siginifcant constellations that have been observed for millenia? You can say there are 32 constellations made up of chess pieces if you wish, but astronomers since long before Jesus have denoted 12.

Mmm... what do you mean by significant? The number of constellations by far exceeds 12 as noted by astronomers. The importance given ...[text shortened]... those 12 is not more than astrology and astronomers should be left out of these arguments, IMO.[/b]

Doesn't the zodiac consist of constellations on the ecliptic? Nibir (Jupiter) marked the ecliptic for the Sumerians* it seems natural for sky "watchers"** making a calender to have a means to divide the sections of the sky into easily recognizable groups ***.

* Im combining Sumerians and Akkadians for simplicity sake, even though Chaldean is a more precise term for the two, using it does cause misunderstand as well as the Sumerian were that progenitors of Chaldean mythology.
** the Watchers was one of the names for Indo European Sumerians used in antiquity.
***The Sumerian number system was base_ 36. my guess is they used the value of 3 as Pi and did their own math.

hold the presses!!!!!!!!!!!!

The oldest image of a star pattern, that of the famous constellation of Orion, has been recognised on an ivory tablet some 32,500 years old.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2679675.stm

could it be we have a Proto Constellation ?

Originally posted by frogstomp
has been recognised on an ivory tablet some 32,500 years old.

pshaw. How could that be? The earth is only 6 thousand years old.

Originally posted by frogstomp
***The Sumerian number system was base_ 36. my guess is they used the value of 3 as Pi and did their own math.

Very interesting, very interesting indeed.

I don't deny any of what you said, it makes perfect sense to me. But there are two things that need not be mixed, in my opinion.

1. The division of the sky as a calender, which serves a non-astrological purpose.
2. The attribution of deities/significances to each one, which is astrological in nature.

I would speculate into saying that existing deities were adapted to each section, but that is a gut feeling that has no reason to back it up other than looking at trends in mythology.

I think that the first logical deity for man would be the sun. It's both awe-inspiring, essential for life and climate dependency all make good reasons for it's divinization. Water/rain would probably follow...

Originally posted by frogstomp
hold the presses!!!!!!!!!!!!

The oldest image of a star pattern, that of the famous constellation of Orion, has been recognised on an ivory tablet some 32,500 years old.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2679675.stm

could it be we have a Proto Constellation ?

Neat-o
They found a carved flute from the same era with holes corresponding to our minor scale, I've lost the link tho.

Originally posted by David C
That there are 12 siginifcant constellations that have been observed for millenia? You can say there are 32 constellations made up of chess pieces if you wish, but astronomers since long before Jesus have denoted 12. That is an unavoidable truth...it is neither 'obscure' or 'subjective'.

We must be careful with our numerical symbolism.

In all likelihood, the use of 12 disciples of Jesus was to signify the 12 tribes of Israel. This
was likely a conscious decision on either Jesus or the writers of his biographies (who, some
argue, made up some of the names to flush out the numbers, which is why Apostle lists do
not line up perfectly).

Now, whether the Jews formed 12 tribes because of non-Jewish religious influences is certainly
plausible (though I don't know anything about it). But, I think any attempt to tie Jesus or
Gospel writers to the Zodiac is rather spurious given the more obvious, connected choice of the
12 tribes.

Just my thoughts on that aspect of the topic.

Nemesio

Originally posted by rwingett
It has just as much validity as any other religion. Which is to say: none.

I don't know how you can draw such a definitive conclusion, given that your
atheistic stance is a logical conclusion based on the absence of evidence.

Because of this statement and many comments I've pointed out before, I
wonder if you aren't really a strong atheist who prefers not to defend your
stance (because of its admitted illogicalness).

Why do you insist on such violent assaults on what is a geniune anthropological
musing?

Nemesio

Originally posted by David C
Your derisive attitude only underscores your ignorance, CK. This has nothing to do astrology, it is astronomy. I'm very sorry if your faith in Jesus is so weak that you are unable to properly educate yourself to address a topic such as this, but so be it.

You said this This has nothing to do astrology, it is astronomy.

about this.....

astrotheology
Brief compendium: The Sun is the central deity in most religions. It has been anthropomorphized into a human(ish) figure, whether it is Ra, Sol Invictus, or Jesus (giving his life so that we may live). We can note that Christianity, for example, contains the 12+1 paradigm (the twelve constellations plus the Sun), and that the 'ages' the sun passes through as it travels the ecliptic (precession of the equinoxes) are closely related to the symbolism and imagery of the time...i.e. Moses and the Ram of God (Aries, the most recent astrological sign the sun passed through at the equinox) as he ushered in the new age after the worship of the Bull (Taurus, the immediate predecessor). As we moved into the current age of Pisces, we see the saviour associated with the opposite-pointing fish (Jesus). We are inching ever closer to the Age of Aquarius (2012, anyone?).


I wish my printer was working, because I'd print out your claim associating this bunk with astronomy, and hang it on my wall. No L's and no G's mind you. AstoNoMy. The science, or the study of, stars planets, galaxies etc. It has nothing to do with bulls or rams or fish or religion.

Originally posted by Nemesio
We must be careful with our numerical symbolism.

In all likelihood, the use of 12 disciples of Jesus was to signify the 12 tribes of Israel. This
was likely a conscious decision on either Jesus or the writers of his biographies (who, some
argue, made up some of the names to flush out the numbers, which is why Apostle lists do
not line up perfectly).
...[text shortened]... connected choice of the
12 tribes.

Just my thoughts on that aspect of the topic.

Nemesio

I can appreciate that viewpoint, however...unless you are willing consider the 12 tribes under one Creator as another example of the 12+1 pattern I had described initially.

Originally posted by chinking58
I wish my printer was working, because I'd print out your claim associating this bunk with astronomy, and hang it on my wall. No L's and no G's mind you. AstoNoMy. The science, or the study of, stars planets, galaxies etc. It has nothing to do with bulls or rams or fish or religion.

I think you're missing the point entirely, and are getting caught up in an ad hominem. Have you read through the thread? Especially the part where Palynka takes me to task on the issue?

Clearly, there has to be a distinction between the modern usage of the words, and the application of the practice in ancient times. Unless you can get past that, you'll just clutch your bible tight and call this idea bunk.

Originally posted by KneverKnight
Neat-o
They found a carved flute from the same era with holes corresponding to our minor scale, I've lost the link tho.

hare one:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/news/story/0,11711,1375698,00.html

only a 3 holer so not the one you found

there's a Neanderthal flute here:

http://www.uh.edu/engines/stoneage/stoneagecd.htm


just a quick net serch tho.