Astrotheology

Originally posted by lucifershammer
[b]You think because someone waves their hands and someone else
gets well you attribute it to god. That is the definition of blind
follower.

What about someone puts needle in someone else and the second person gets well?

Humean skepticism will only get you so far.[/b]

The needle example is repeatable and can survive tests with controls.

Originally posted by David C
You know, I had hoped this might spark some kind of discussion beyond the 'crackpot hypothesis' stage, but it seems many are clinging to their ratty, tattered security blankets as tightly as they can...theist and non-theist alike.

The link is a result of the position of the constellations as the sun rises during the vernal equinox, a fairly significant ...[text shortened]... t. I'm sure most of the gathered here think I'm some sort of escaped asylum fugitive as it is.

I'm torn between making my new forum title "crackpot hypothesis" and "asylum fugitive". Any votes?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I'm torn between making my new forum title "crackpot hypothesis" and "asylum fugitive". Any votes?

Let's all hold hands and sing songs from Hair

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I'm torn between making my new forum title "crackpot hypothesis" and "asylum fugitive". Any votes?

How about 'crackpot fugitive'? Has a nice ring to it.

Originally posted by KneverKnight
Let's all hold hands and sing songs from Hair

Super. Being mocked by the Straw Man. I feel vindicated!

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
...Stonehenge...Attis, Adonis, Osiris...Dionysus...Easter...Christmas...can you tell what I'm on about?

Historical evidence of study of the sun and stars (archaeoastronomy). The mythological figures you mention are all representations of the sun. Stonehenge, along with many, many other archaeological structures such as Machu Pichu, the Egyptian Temple of Karnak, Angkor Wat in Cambodia, the 'observatory' at Chichen Itza, Newgrange, etc, all demonstrate that ancient civilisations made practice of the study of the astronomy. Easter and Christmas are both modern holidays based on celestial events. Easter denotes the 'rebirth' of the sun as it passes the vernal equinox, and Christmas is the 'birth' of the sun as it returns from it's lowest declination during the winter solstice.

Originally posted by David C
Historical evidence of study of the sun and stars (archaeoastronomy). The mythological figures you mention are all representations of the sun. Stonehenge, along with many, many other archaeological structures such as Machu Pichu, the Egyptian Temple of Karnak, Angkor Wat in Cambodia, the 'observatory' at Chichen Itza, Newgrange, etc, all demonstrate ...[text shortened]... the 'birth' of the sun as it returns from it's lowest declination during the winter solstice.

Originally posted by Palynka
There is a link between astronomy and astrology as well, astrology attributes meanings to astronomical events and bodies that generally do exist (planets, stars/constellations, orbits, equinoxes, etc).

Astronomical events being celebrated are astrology to me because for astronomy they simply happen, they don't mean anything, so there's no reason to celebrate.

Edit: Reformat

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
You people lack imagination.

Here's a decent enough link that covers the arguments:http://jesusastrotheology.netfirms.com/

A book would be better. If you've got the attention span, try The Golden Bough (James Frazer) for starters. Better still, The Origins of the Sacred (Dudley Young).

Or maybe just ask yourself, what is Easter?

You could learn something from all this, you know.

It doesn't even require imagination, IMHO.

Here's a decent enough link that covers the arguments:http://jesusastrotheology.netfirms.com/

Too bad that author seems to be all over the place. I wish he could be more concise. I'll have to study that site in detail. Too many pages, and poorly planned HTML. :-/

You could learn something from all this, you know.

lol, yeah. The Jesusbots aren't willing, though. Apparently the 'free-thinkers' are too busy mocking the idea. Maybe they think I'm suggesting replacing one theology with another?

Originally posted by Palynka
[b]Originally posted by Palynka
There is a link between astronomy and astrology as well, astrology attributes meanings to astronomical events and bodies that generally do exist (planets, stars/constellations, orbits, equinoxes, etc).

Astronomical events being celebrated are astrology to me because for astronomy they simply happen, they don't mean anything, so there's no reason to celebrate.

Edit: Reformat[/b]

What's the edit? To remove your assent to some of the suggestions? lol.

Astronomical events being celebrated are astrology to me because for astronomy they simply happen, they don't mean anything, so there's no reason to celebrate.

Granted, these celestial events simply happen. This does not change the fact that they were somehow looked upon as significant to life by the ancient civs, and cause for celebration. The vernal equinox, for example, is an important milestone....the beginning of spring, the growing season. The winter solstice, the shortest day of the year...afterward the sun appears to be born in the winter sky again as it begins it's journey back across the ecliptic. While it may mean little to modern man, it was likely a significant event for ancient man who depended on the sun for sustenance.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Oh, and, Christians, please remember the inspirational story of the 3 Wise Men.

Al-nitak, Al-nilam and Mintaka. They are posistioned directly above the North Star at sunrise on the 25th of December. Attending the birth of the sun, so to speak.

Originally posted by David C
What's the edit? To remove your assent to some of the suggestions? lol.

[b]Astronomical events being celebrated are astrology to me because for astronomy they simply happen, they don't mean anything, so there's no reason to celebrate.

Granted, these celestial events simply happen. This does not change the fact that they were somehow looked upon ...[text shortened]... n man, it was likely a significant event for ancient man who depended on the sun for sustenance.[/b]

I don't deny this, but why isn't it a form of astrology to you?

Don't forget that most of the times celebrations where done out of fear of God/Gods/nature or as a form of thanking the God/Gods/nature for the past good-fortune.

For the ancient man it was more than a turn of a season, it was a spiritual event. Granted, it became spiritual due to astronomic events that did have a real impact on their lives (at least some) but the spiritualization of these events is concurrent with my definition of astrology.

How would you define astrology? Perhaps our difference of opinion rises from there.

PS: I'm sorry that this has taken a turn on semantics, especially because I agree with you in the essence of your first post. If you feel this is unproductive say it and I'll have no problem in leaving this question behind.

Originally posted by Palynka
I don't deny this, but why isn't it a form of astrology to you?

Don't forget that most of the times celebrations where done out of fear of God/Gods/nature or as a form of thanking the God/Gods/nature for the past good-fortune.

For the ancient man it was more than a turn of a season, it was a spiritual event. Granted, it became spiritual due to astro ...[text shortened]... you feel this is unproductive say it and I'll have no problem in leaving this question behind.

As a matter of fact, I had begun a reply asking you to define Astrology vs. Astronomy. Seems like a good a time as any.

Astrology, as defined by Wikipedia:

Astrology (from Greek: astron, "star" + logos, "word" ) is any of several traditions or systems in which knowledge of the apparent positions of celestial bodies is held to be useful in understanding, interpreting, and organizing knowledge about reality and human existence on earth.

This is not a completely accurate description of what Astrotheology or Solar Mythology entails, as far as I can tell. The link Bosse provided, although chaotic, has the gist of the matter. The story of Jesus (among others) is demonstrably allegorical for the passage of the sun through the sky. The Western zodiac in its' present form predates Jesus, Moses and Dynastic Egypt (ibid Wikipedia). It matters not that chinking posits there are 32 constellations made up of chess pieces, ancient civilisations and astronomers did not.

The problem with the term Astrology in this case seems to stem from the modern use of the word...Walter Mercado dressed in a Liberace-like feather boa dishing out the daily horoscope is not part of this discussion. Your thoughts?

multiple edits: misbehaving keyboard monkeys
------

Originally posted by David C
As a matter of fact, I had begun a reply asking you to define Astrology vs. Astronomy. Seems like a good a time as any.

Astrology, as defined by Wikipedia:

Astrology (from Greek: astron, "star" + logos, "word" ) is any of several traditions or systems in which knowledge of the apparent positions of celestial bodies is held to be useful in unders ...[text shortened]... f this discussion. Your thoughts?

[i]multiple edits: misbehaving keyboard monkeys
------

[/i]Astrology, as defined by Wikipedia:

Astrology (from Greek: astron, "star" + logos, "word" ) is any of several traditions or systems in which knowledge of the apparent positions of celestial bodies is held to be useful in understanding, interpreting, and organizing knowledge about reality and human existence on earth.

I agree and accept this definition for the moment.

The problem with the term Astrology in this case seems to stem from the modern use of the word...Walter Mercado dressed in a Liberace-like feather boa dishing out the daily horoscope is not part of this discussion. Your thoughts?
I entirely agree. I was thinking of astrology in a broader sense of the word, not merely limiting it to modern day horoscopes or the zodiac, note that I included equinox celebrations [or the spiritualization of equinoxes (sp?) ] in that broader definition of astrology that the definition above would also include (at least as I interpret it).

This is not a completely accurate description of what Astrotheology or Solar Mythology entails, as far as I can tell.
I'm sorry, I don't understand why they are not contained in the broader sense of astrology that was mentioned before. Mythification (sp?) of astronomical events (like the passage of the sun thorugh the sky that you mention) is a system useful in (understanding, interpreting and organizing knowledge about reality and human existence on Earth". At least how I view it, perhaps I'm missing something.

Coming back to the central topic, I view this similarities as an adaptation of new religions to celebrations that already existed. Much like many atheists (like me) still celebrate Christmas, even if we/they give it a very different meaning than the original one that I believe also largely predates Christianism. It's hard to change the encrusted celebration habits of a society and that's very interesting and revealing of human nature.

Originally posted by David C
Historical evidence of study of the sun and stars (archaeoastronomy). The mythological figures you mention are all representations of the sun. Stonehenge, along with many, many other archaeological structures such as Machu Pichu, the Egyptian Temple of Karnak, Angkor Wat in Cambodia, the 'observatory' at Chichen Itza, Newgrange, etc, all demonstrate ...[text shortened]... the 'birth' of the sun as it returns from it's lowest declination during the winter solstice.

Astronomy was a major part of Sumerian mythology, probably all ancient civilizations.

Originally posted by Palynka
I'm sorry, I don't understand why they are not contained in the broader sense of astrology that was mentioned before. Mythification (sp?) of astronomical events (like the passage of the sun thorugh the sky that you mention) is a system useful in (understanding, interpreting and organizing knowledge about reality and human existence on Earth". At le ...[text shortened]... sted celebration habits of a society and that's very interesting and revealing of human nature.

Unfortunately, the negative connotations of the word can cause reactions as you've seen in this post from other non-theists. That is my only objection to classification of this hypothesis as Astrology. Even non-thinking 'bots can get a dig in by likening this idea to 'meeting a buxom blonde' or 'watch out for that curve ahead'.

This is not an attempt to create a new theology, rather (IMO) it seeks to describe the source(s) for the creator god mythology that permeates human history. After all, even evolutionists (especially evolutionists?) would agree that we owe our existence to the sun. Without it, humans would not exist. How early on in our collective conscious development did we learn this fundamental truth?