1 edit
Originally posted by David CJust responding here to David C's opening post in this thread...regarding the central significance of the Sun in religions. The Sun is an aspect of Nature, an elemental force and so as a symbol it will be found to be of significance in certain forms of spiritual teachings, but less so in others.
Anyone familiar with the term?
Brief compendium: The Sun is the central deity in most religions. It has been anthropomorphized into a human(ish) figure, whether it is Ra, Sol Invictus, or Jesus (giving his life so that we may live). We can note that Christianity, for example, contains the 12+1 paradigm (the twelve constellations plus the Sun), and ...[text shortened]... re inching ever closer to the Age of Aquarius (2012, anyone?).
Interesting, or complete Bunk?
Briefly, there have been 5 main "streams" of spiritual teachings throughout history, those being...
1. Great Spirit Stream, which is mostly shamanism in its various expressions.
2. Great Mother Goddess Stream: Was connected to development of agriculture and the earliest known civilizations.
3. Creator God Stream: The Creator God cultures were usually solar/kingly/patriarchal, beginning with Egypt about 3000 BCE. Ancient Hebrew and Arab cultures show this type of development as well, as did the ancient Vedic traditions (Hinduism).
4. Saviour God Stream: The monotheistic (one God, and messianic ambassador), through the Judeo/Christian and Islamic traditions.
5. Methodological Stream: This is represented mostly by Buddhism and some schools of Hindu yoga, which are essentially methods/philosophies for achieving realization of our true nature. They are less concerned with doctrine and the name given for God or ultimate truth, then they are with you having the experience of spiritual realization, thus the emphasis on method.
It helps to see this bigger context because elemental symbols like the Sun and Moon, etc., tend to predominate more in certain streams, like the Great Spirit, Mother Goddess, and Creator God forms. But they are found much less, if at all, in the Savior God and Methodological streams. This is because these types of spiritualities are less concerned with matter or phenomena or their related symbols (though on occasion making use of them in parables), and much more concerned with an inner, numinous conversion to spiritual consciousness.
A classic example of a solar symbol for a Creator God was the Egyptian pharoah Akhenaton's deity "Aten", which he had represented by the solar disc with rays streaming out. He used the Sun as a symbol for "Aten" and attempted to abolish the polytheism that was rampant in Egypt at the time, supposedly beginning the first monotheism (one God only) tradition.
Akhenaton's teachings could be seen as the beginning of the movement away from relying on elemental or Nature symbols as representations of spiritual qualities. Taoism was perhaps the first tradition to define Ultimate Reality as formless, via what it called the "Tao" ( "the Tao that can be named, is not the true Tao" ). Both Buddhism and Christianity (whatever one thinks of their accompanying doctrinal details) strive to define the spiritual as being beyond matter or Nature or its related symbols.
One could argue that this has been a general evolution of religion, from animism/shamanism through Goddess and Creator God forms, to Taoist/Christian/Buddhist/Yogic ideas of transcending matter altogether (including related symbols of Nature like the Sun and zodiac), but the shadow side of these more recent religions is all too clear as well. In steering clear of Nature and her related symbols as a means to bridge to the spiritual realm, the risk is also run of incurring the arrogance that can all too easily accompany any attempt to move beyond the natural, into the "supernatural". The attitude modern humanity has toward the Earth and Nature (via technological harvesting of the planet and plundering of its species and natural resources) points that out well enough. That said, all spirituality is ultimately about inner realization, so even a Nature archetype like the Sun is at best a pointer toward something much greater than the Sun itself. Or as they put it in Zen, "all words are but fingers pointing toward the Moon of enlightenment."
Originally posted by NemesioThey would have had some knowlege of the Constellations, Im not that familiar with Jewish mysticism that I can venture an opinion on their's or early Christian's use of the Zodiac.
You misread what I wrote. There can be no doubt that the proto-Jews used Babylonian
sources to help develop their early theological writings.
Whether they knew of the Zodiac remains to be demonstrated.
That the Christians used Zodiac-inspired theology in the formation of their own is utterly
unsubstantiated (whereas their use of Jewish theology is d ...[text shortened]... esis story?
At first blush, it doesn't seem all that remarkable (but maybe it is!).
Nemesio
In the 5th tablet is part of Chaldean creation mythology , I refered to it here for it's astronomical implications.Maybe you can help me here : What was Marduk using the 6th day for in relation to the lunar cycle?
the other to sources is the Sumerian flood story. there are more
including at least one that used flood and storm to refer to an invasion of Sumer by Elam. ( give thanks to my good friend gentlegil who dug that one up}
Considering Adam's birthplace was Ur, and Terah was a follower of the local religion it's nowhere's near only a conjecture that Abram and his followers had knowlege of the Sumerian mythology and legends prior to them becoming proto-jews. I would have prefered the term "israelites" but people have a way of reading that as a reflection on present day Israeli's, which I have never intended.
Originally posted by NemesioOne only has to read the word of the kingdom to dispel the notion that religious tolerance is only a modern concept so maybe you ought to revisit the concept of heresy and see if you can see just who the heretics were. Killing for Christ is NOT a Christian principle and any church that acted they way you say they all did was NOT acting even remotely Christian !
Because [b]all religions did the same thing with competing religions. Religious tolerance
is a modern concept, as you full well know. So, unless you want to talk about the extermination
of every competing religion at any given time, it is meaningless to bring up the fact that
the Church (long before it dubbed itself Catholic, even before it came out ...[text shortened]... in light of the archeological discoveries that have been made in the past 100 years.
Nemesio[/b]
Neither " Well ,,,,, they all did it " nor acting like a fait accompli that totally wiped out the history doesn't change the fact that some of the other early Christian writings DID survive even in the RCC's underground.
BTW Christianity stll survived despite the "thought police and the book burners" just as the word said it would.
Originally posted by MetamorphosisThere were early Christians that weren't far removed from the Buddha.
Just responding here to David C's opening post in this thread...regarding the central significance of the Sun in religions. The Sun is an aspect of Nature, an elemental force and so as a symbol it will be found to be of significance in certain forms of spiritual teachings, but less so in others.
Briefly, there have been 5 main "streams" of spirit ...[text shortened]... as they put it in Zen, "all words are but fingers pointing toward the Moon of enlightenment."
Originally posted by Bosse de NageAn interesting site. I've seen the model before, actually...even before I was tuned in to the Jesus/Sun idea. I'm not sure I agree with Pal's comment about forced correlations, I think the numbers are there to interpret. There's definitely a portion of mysticism based on numerical equations (Kabbalah, anyone?), but I have a feeling it's a result of the study of the stars and the need to use mathematics to represent the data.
What do think of this, David (and all the rest of you)?
http://www.jesus8880.com/chapters/gematria/vesica-pisces.htm
After all, modern archaeologists are far too quick to dismiss the apparent knowledge of pi by both Mesoamerican and Dyanstic Egyptian pyramid architects.
Originally posted by Nemesio
Why are you introducing this? I thought you were interested in an anthropological study of religions. What difference does it make whether or not God existed for the purposes of such an inquiry? Does your non-belief in the figures of the Zodiac invalidate such a study? Stay on target here.
Yeah, yeah, I know...sorry. My bias has betrayed my once again. Problem is, I get quite annoyed with the constant sanctimony of the xtians in this forum. Their neverending ad verecundiam makes me want to take a hammer to my monitor.
Originally posted by David CMy knowledge of the subject is dangerously slight. Nevertheless, I'd like to point out that sacred geometry was the very basis of Pythagorean & Platonic beliefs and was also basic to much Renaissance art. Moreover, up to a certain date, all religious architecture (temples, cathedrals...) seems based on these proportions.
There's definitely a portion of mysticism based on numerical equations (Kabbalah, anyone?), but I have a feeling it's a result of the study of the stars and the need to use mathematics to represent the data.
After all, modern archaeologists are far too quick to dismiss the apparent knowledge of pi by both Mesoamerican and Dyanstic Egyptian pyrami ...[text shortened]... his forum. Their neverending ad verecundiam makes me want to take a hammer to my monitor.
Originally posted by Bosse de Nageisn't it one proportion. The Golden Mean (phi)
My knowledge of the subject is dangerously slight. Nevertheless, I'd like to point out that sacred geometry was the very basis of Pythagorean & Platonic beliefs and was also basic to much Renaissance art. Moreover, up to a certain date, all religious architecture (temples, cathedrals...) seems based on these proportions.
Phi= 1.618033988749895 . . .
which is the number that the ratios of successive pairs of numbers in the Fibonacci series converges on.
http://goldennumber.net/
Originally posted by MetamorphosisI appreciate this post. My contention is that 1 and 2 were perverted (metamorphed, if I may), into 3 and 4 as society grew ever more politicized. 5 is a result of our collective spiritual evolution as we learn more about our natural surroundings...and the mytery of self-consciousness deepens, necessitating more significant inward retrospection.
Briefly, there have been 5 main "streams" of spiritual teachings throughout history, those being...
1. Great Spirit Stream, which is mostly shamanism in its various expressions.
2. Great Mother Goddess Stream: Was connected to development of agriculture and the earliest known civilizations.
3. Creator God Stream: The Creator God cultures ...[text shortened]... re with you having the experience of spiritual realization, thus the emphasis on method.