Astrotheology

Originally posted by frogstomp
Astronomy was a major part of Sumerian mythology, probably all ancient civilizations.

Yes, it was. According to Wiki, the iconic figures given to the constellations in the western zodiac also originated in Sumer (I have an alternative theory which I will not present at this time). By all accounts, astronomy was quite prominent in the mesoamerican/pre-columbian cultures as well.

Originally posted by Palynka
[/i][b]Astrology, as defined by Wikipedia:

Astrology (from Greek: astron, "star" + logos, "word" ) is any of several traditions or systems in which knowledge of the apparent positions of celestial bodies is held to be useful in understanding, interpreting, and organizing knowledge about reality and human existence on earth.

I agree and a ...[text shortened]... sted celebration habits of a society and that's very interesting and revealing of human nature.[/b]

Man has been looking to the stars for guidance probabaly before he was Cro-Magnon. The first man that stepped out from under the canopy and looked up must have been awe-stricken.

Logos also has sense of letters having meanings in and of themselves. Which is a natural development since pictographic messages was man's earliest writing.

Celibrations around the *Vernal equinox were mostly about "rebirth" with obvious significance to hunter-gatherer cultures, even more so with the later agricultual ones.

*Southern Hemisphere excepted ( Autumnal equinox of course) and Equatorial reagions (for obvious reasons)

Originally posted by David C
Al-nitak, Al-nilam and Mintaka. They are posistioned directly above the North Star at sunrise on the 25th of December. Attending the birth of the sun, so to speak.

any connection with the tablets of Adapa?
Which end with this:
"When thou comest up to heaven, and approachest the door of Anu,
Tammuz and Gishzida at the door of Anu are standing."

Anu was the Akkadian name for the Sumerian father god An.
Tammuz and Gishzida were both solar deities (planets?)

Gishzida evolved into Ningishzida with the meaning of Lord of the Good Tree.

Originally posted by frogstomp
Man has been looking to the stars for guidance probabaly before he was Cro-Magnon. The first man that stepped out from under the canopy and looked up must have been awe-stricken.

Logos also has sense of letters having meanings in and of themselves. Which is a natural development since pictographic messages was man's earliest writing ...[text shortened]... isphere excepted ( Autumnal equinox of course) and Equatorial reagions (for obvious reasons)

I agree with mostly everything.

The name "astrology" may be relatively recent, but it describes a phenomenon (human spiritualization of astronomical events/bodies) much older.

The idea of rebirth is a spiritualization of the life cycle, in my view, and was attached to the equinoxes because they marked (and still mark for some) transitional moments in human life.

My view is that this is still astrology under the definition proposed by David C (which I accept).

Celibrations around the *Vernal equinox were mostly about "rebirth" with obvious significance to hunter-gatherer cultures, even more so with the later agricultual ones.
Considering that these moments would probably mark the migration of the hunter-gatherer societies, I'm would change the order of importance. But this perhaps is a minor detail.

Originally posted by frogstomp
any connection with the tablets of Adapa?

I'm not certain. You seem to have a higher level of knowledge of Sumerian mythology than do I. Al-nitak, Al-nilam and Mintaka are the common modern names for the three stars that make up the Belt of Orion.

Originally posted by David C
Unfortunately, the negative connotations of the word can cause reactions as you've seen in this post from other non-theists. That is my only objection to classification of this hypothesis as Astrology. Even non-thinking 'bots can get a dig in by likening this idea to 'meeting a buxom blonde' or 'watch out for that curve ahead'.

This is not an attem ...[text shortened]... exist. How early on in our collective conscious development did we learn this fundamental truth?

Unfortunately, the negative connotations of the word can cause reactions as you've seen in this post from other non-theists.

If those non-theist cannot go past those connotations after an explanation, it's their problem. I'm not preaching, I'm thinking and learning.

This is not an attempt to create a new theology, rather (IMO) it seeks to describe the source(s) for the creator god mythology that permeates human history.
I've given my opinion about the correlations between religions regarding some celebrations and it's presence in apparently non-astrological founded religions. See my example of atheists celebrating Christmas. I would like to hear your comment on that.

How early on in our collective conscious development did we learn this fundamental truth?
I can only speculate since this subject is new to me, so if you would describe your (allegedly) controversial ideas, I would be happy to comment on them.

Originally posted by David C
I'm not certain. You seem to have a higher level of knowledge of Sumerian mythology than do I. Al-nitak, Al-nilam and Mintaka are the common modern names for the three stars that make up the Belt of Orion.

🙂 thank you ! Tammuz and Gishzida both were associated with Orion

heres a little more:

"Tammuz
In Sumerian mythology, a vegetation god representing the decay and growth of natural life; he died at midsummer and was rescued from the underworld the following spring by his lover Ishtar. His cult spread over Babylonia, Syria, Phoenicia, and Palestine. He was possibly identified with the Egyptian Osiris and the Greek Adonis."

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0012927.html

Isthar as you know was the goddess of spring and it was her holiday that Easter replaced.

edit- left off a source

Originally posted by Palynka
This is not an attempt to create a new theology, rather (IMO) it seeks to if you would describe your (allegedly) controversial ideas, I would be happy to comment on them.

I can only speculate since this subject is new to me, so if you would describe your (allegedly) controversial ideas, I would be happy to comment on them.

What...the ideas I've put forward in my MJC thread and this one aren't controversial enough? lol.

The only other thing I've alluded to in this thread is J.A. West's alternative dating for the Great Sphinx at Giza (which, BTW, would place it squarely in the Age of Leo). I'm not sure that has a place in this forum, though.

I've given my opinion about the correlations between religions regarding some celebrations and it's presence in apparently non-astrological founded religions. See my example of atheists celebrating Christmas. I would like to hear your comment on that.

It's a by-product of 1780 years of Christianity that we even refer to the holiday as 'Christmas'. The celebration of the 'birth of humankind's saviour' may go back further. The celebrated celestial event happens after the winter solstice, when the sun reaches it's lowest declination on the horizon...and appears to pause for three days. It begins it's march northward to the vernal equinox and summer solstice on December 25th (Gregorian, naturally, lol). The sunrise on that day is immediately preceeded by the North Star (Polaris, at this time) and the three stars of Orion's belt.

Is that the type of comment you were looking for, or something else?

Originally posted by frogstomp
🙂 thank you ! Tammuz and Gishzida both were associated with Orion

heres a little more:

"Tammuz
In Sumerian mythology, a vegetation god representing the decay and growth of natural life; he died at midsummer and was rescued from the underworld the following spring by his lover Ishtar. His cult spread over Babylonia, Syria, Phoenicia, and Pa ...[text shortened]... dess of spring and it was her holiday that Easter replaced.

edit- left off a source

Fascinating. That Orion sure does get around in ancient mythology, doesn't he? 😉

Originally posted by David C
Is that the type of comment you were looking for, or something else?

No, you didn't address my comments.

I'm starting to believe you really believe astrology (oops, negative connotation) has indeed influence over humans and those similarities are not merely a perpetuation of celebrations.

Originally posted by Palynka
No, you didn't address my comments.

I'm starting to believe you really believe astrology (oops, negative connotation) has indeed influence over humans and those similarities are not merely a perpetuation of celebrations.

Then you're not making any sense at all. Here was your opinion/comment:

Coming back to the central topic, I view this similarities as an adaptation of new religions to celebrations that already existed. Much like many atheists (like me) still celebrate Christmas, even if we/they give it a very different meaning than the original one that I believe also largely predates Christianism. It's hard to change the encrusted celebration habits of a society and that's very interesting and revealing of human nature.

Are you saying that the xmas celebration predates xtianity, but aren't willing to accept the idea that the celebrated event is the 'birth' of the sun? If not, then what? I place no credence in 'astrology' in the modern sense of the word, so your ad hominem means little. Perhaps you can clarify?

Originally posted by David C
Then you're not making any sense at all. Here was your opinion/comment:

[b]Coming back to the central topic, I view this similarities as an adaptation of new religions to celebrations that already existed. Much like many atheists (like me) still celebrate Christmas, even if we/they give it a very different meaning than the original one that I believe als ...[text shortened]... ogy' in the modern sense of the word, so your ad hominem means little. Perhaps you can clarify?

[/b]Ad Hominem? Where? My comment between parenthesis was to emphasize that I'm not willing to say that isn't astrology and to hell with anyone that can't get over the negative connotation. Either way, I never attacked you and attacking your ideas is not an Ad Hominem.

I never said I'm not willing to accept that it is the sun being celebrated, I accepted it's origins to probably date at least as far as the Neolithic.

My point is that the consistencies of astrology in religions throughout time were due one of:
- Very strong dependency from the climatic conditions;
- Adaptations of celebrations (for Christians, Christmas or Easter has nothing to do with the sun);
- The greatness of the cosmos creating a psychological feeling of divine to man.

I now think that you believe they DO influence mankind by more than the psychological effects of the previous reasons. Until you clarify that I don't know where you stand.

Originally posted by Palynka
Ad Hominem? Where? My comment between parenthesis was to emphasize that I'm not willing to say that isn't astrology and to hell with anyone that can't get over the negative connotation. Either way, I never attacked you and attacking your ideas is not an Ad Hominem.

I never said I'm not willing to accept that it is the sun being celebrated, I accep ...[text shortened]... hological effects of the previous reasons. Until you clarify that I don't know where you stand.[/b]

Ad Hominem? Where?

I must have misconstrued your comment as sarcastic. I'll retract.

My point is that the consistencies of astrology in religions throughout time were due one of:
- Very strong dependency from the climatic conditions;
- Adaptations of celebrations (for Christians, Christmas or Easter has nothing to do with the sun);
- The greatness of the cosmos creating a psychological feeling of divine to man.

We are in agreement on this, but why not all three? Although the celebration of xmas and easter is not per se a celebration of the sun for xtians, it is their misunderstanding of the nature of the allegory they read as literal.

I now think that you believe they DO influence mankind by more than the psychological effects of the previous reasons. Until you clarify that I don't know where you stand.

At no time have I put forward an idea that individuals are affected by their 'birth sign', or that daily life is controlled by astrological symbols, so I'm not sure what you're getting at...who or what is the 'they' that I italicized in your comment?

Originally posted by David C
[b]Ad Hominem? Where?

I must have misconstrued your comment as sarcastic. I'll retract.

My point is that the consistencies of astrology in religions throughout time were due one of:
- Very strong dependency from the climatic conditions;
- Adaptations of celebrations (for Christians, Christmas or Easter has nothing to do with the sun);
- The ...[text shortened]... ot sure what you're getting at...who or what is the 'they' that I italicized in your comment?

[/b]Ok, I think we agree then in most things.

The statement that you have an even more controversial opinion and the link between the Sphinx with the age of Leo mislead me into believing there was something else behind your statements. Maybe you wanted to point out that the Zodiac could predate Sumer and, more importantly, could predate any known for of writing!! Very interesting.

PS: With "they" I meant celestial bodies, their movements and relative positionings.

Edit: Format
Edit 2: You are correct in suggesting they could be all of them together, that's what I meant but my phrasing was poor. I guess never having lived in English speaking countries can take its toll in internet forums...

Originally posted by Palynka
Maybe you wanted to point out that the Zodiac could predate Sumer and, more importantly, could predate any known for of writing!! Very interesting.

Are you familiar with John Anthony West and Robert Schoch's theory for evidence of water erosion on the body and enclosure of the Sphinx? Egyptologists assert the Sphinx was initially carved during the 4th Dynasty as it looks today, which I find implausible due to simple visual examination. Here is an excellent photo of what I mean:

http://www.msjc.edu/art/djohnson/images/art%20101%20images/chapter%202/sphinx.jpg

Note that the Pharonic head is completely out of proportion to the body, and appears to be both less weathered and darker. Almost as if the bust of the Pharaoh was carved at a later date. This is not topical in this thread, though, so I won't comment further.