Originally posted by David Ctwelve btw is the number of half tones in our music scale.
I think you're missing the point entirely, and are getting caught up in an ad hominem. Have you read through the thread? Especially the part where Palynka takes me to task on the issue?
Clearly, there has to be a distinction between the modern usage of the words, and the application of the practice in ancient times. Unless you can get past that, you'll just clutch your bible tight and call this idea bunk.
Originally posted by David CAs I said, I think it is entirely plausible to consider such a viewpoint -- I simply do not
I can appreciate that viewpoint, however...unless you are willing consider the 12 tribes under one Creator as another example of the 12+1 pattern I had described initially.
know if there is any data to back that up.
However, the notion that Christianity's use of 12 has anything to do with the Zodiac --
that is, having any sort of direct astrotheological link -- is probably a spurious claim.
HOWEVER:
We do see the introduction of 'pagan' influences into Christianity after a few generations
(specifically, when the Christians were predominantly Gentile rather than Jewish, who
tended to be rather insular). The first examples of this is most obviously the Saints, who
often bear an uncanny resemblance to the 'lower' gods of the pagan religions. There are
still vestiges of this in the Catholic traditions (Eastern and Western), with the 'Saint of X'
where 'X' can be anything, from health to music to lost causes to lost objects.
This took on even further shape during the so-called Barbarian Invasions (which was really
more of the Nomadic Migration than anything). The iconography and, especially, relics/artifacts
from this period reflect a fusion of Christian and norse/anglo-pagan religions. My puerile
memory can recall an artificat with a Jesus with an enormous phallus, which was a combination
between Christ and some norse Messiah-figure.
There is no doubt that from early Christianity, there was a cross-fertilization process between
Judeo-Christianity and the Gentile religions of the area, and especially further influences from
the West as Christianity became dominant in modern-day Europe.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioThat god and jesus exist(ed) as described in the xtian bible is far more spurious than that, Nem. :-/
As I said, I think it is entirely plausible to consider such a viewpoint -- I simply do not
know if there is any data to back that up.
However, the notion that Christianity's use of 12 has anything to do with the Zodiac --
that is, having any sort of direct astrotheological link -- is probably a spurious claim.
If you are willing to consider the 12+1 astrotheological link for the 12 tribes of Israel (and their god), the aren't you indirectly admitting that xtianity's use of the pattern might spring from the same source?
Originally posted by Nemesioconsidering that book burners and thought police were for a long time in charge of the roman church and had no qualms about using violence to enforce their orthodoxy , the original christianity might have been vastly different than what it is now.
As I said, I think it is entirely plausible to consider such a viewpoint -- I simply do not
know if there is any data to back that up.
However, the notion that Christianity's use of 12 has anything to do with the Zodiac --
that is, having any sort of direct astrotheological link -- is probably a spurious claim.
HOWEVER:
We do see the introduction ...[text shortened]... rther influences from
the West as Christianity became dominant in modern-day Europe.
Nemesio
Originally posted by David C
That god and jesus exist(ed) as described in the xtian bible is far more spurious than that, Nem. :-/
Why are you introducing this? I thought you were interested in an anthropological study of
religions. What difference does it make whether or not God existed for the purposes of such
an inquiry? Does your non-belief in the figures of the Zodiac invalidate such a study? Stay
on target here.
If you are willing to consider the 12+1 astrotheological link for the 12 tribes of Israel (and their god), the aren't you indirectly admitting that xtianity's use of the pattern might spring from the same source?
I was talking about intent. I do not believe that it is credible to deduce that the reason that
there are 12 disciples is because there are 12 figures in the Zodiac. Such a claim has no basis
except for the concordance on the number 12. Such a concordance is, I believe, incidental.
However, the concordance of 12 disciples and 12 tribes of Judea is not a coincidence. The writers
of the Synoptic Gospels (especially the one attributed to St Matthew) were almost certainly Jewish
and the Jews had a long history of attributing symbolic characteristics to the number 12, specifically
for the reason I mentioned: the 12 tribes of Israel. As the writers make an especial effort to
make the number equal twelve (despite the non-concordant name lists), we can extrapolate that
the Gospels' use of the number 12 very likely reflects this Jewish sentiment.
Now, as I said, the question about why the Jews found the number 12 significant is a point of
discussion. Whether the proto-Jews from 1500-2000 years ago knew of the Zodiac from the
local pagan religions or incorporated it into their own theological material (as they did various
Babylonian myths and so forth) may be true. But it might not be. For me to find such a
claim credible, I'd like to see a little evidence (like, say, the evidence for the Flood myth's
borrowing).
Christianity's use of the number 12 derives from Jewish theology. Of this, we can be reasonably
certain. If you want to derive a chain of continuity from 1500 years of interpretation -- some sort
of loose and indirect link -- I say demonstrate that the Jews may have had such a knowledge of
the Zodiac. Nonetheless, to say that astrotheology influenced Christianity is about as meaningful
as saying the Neanderthal's bone flute music influenced the Rolling Stones.
Nemesio
Originally posted by frogstompWhat is this? Irrelevant smashing of religion day?
considering that book burners and thought police were for a long time in charge of the roman church and had no qualms about using violence to enforce their orthodoxy , the original christianity might have been vastly different than what it is now.
Your point about what the Roman Church did do/did not do/may have done is just illiciting
defenses, apologies, attacks and what not. I thought we were trying to have a meaningful
discussion of comparative religions here.
Nemesio
1 edit
Originally posted by NemesioHow can you include Christainity in have a meaningful discussion of comparative religion without discussing how the 1000 lb gorilla that sat on Christianity for 1000 years and the effects of it destroying historical documents had on the nature of the religion?
What is this? Irrelevant smashing of religion day?
Your point about what the Roman Church did do/did not do/may have done is just illiciting
defenses, apologies, attacks and what not. I thought we were trying to have a meaningful
discussion of comparative religions here.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioIt is perfectly acceptable to presume that the 12 tribes of Judea were also mythical (not all tribes, obviously, but the number 12).
However, the concordance of 12 disciples and 12 tribes of Judea is not a coincidence.
I'm not sure, but I believe that most of the evidence is religious in nature for determining the number of tribes as 12.
Originally posted by Nemesiomay be true?
Originally posted by David C
[b]That god and jesus exist(ed) as described in the xtian bible is far more spurious than that, Nem. :-/
Why are you introducing this? I thought you were interested in an anthropological study of
religions. What difference does it make whether or not God existed for the purposes of such
an inquiry? Does your ...[text shortened]... ngful
as saying the Neanderthal's bone flute music influenced the Rolling Stones.
Nemesio[/b]
the number 12:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/stc/stc08.htm
the flood story:
http://www.earth-history.com/Sumer/sumer-eridu-genesis.htm
http://www.earth-history.com/Sumer/sumer-flood-story.htm
Originally posted by frogstompBecause all religions did the same thing with competing religions. Religious tolerance
How can you include Christainity in have a meaningful discussion of comparative religion without discussing how the 1000 lb gorilla that sat on Christianity for 1000 years and the effects of it destroying historical documents had on the nature of the religion?
is a modern concept, as you full well know. So, unless you want to talk about the extermination
of every competing religion at any given time, it is meaningless to bring up the fact that
the Church (long before it dubbed itself Catholic, even before it came out of the East!) destroyed
competing religions (or heresies, as it were).
So, either you will have to admit that any meaningful conversation is impossible, or you will
tacitly recognize that the Church (and every other religion) has participated in such activities.
Either way, it is not productive to discuss it in this venue where we are comparing things,
especially in light of the archeological discoveries that have been made in the past 100 years.
Nemesio
Originally posted by frogstompYou misread what I wrote. There can be no doubt that the proto-Jews used Babylonian
may be true?
the number 12:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/stc/stc08.htm
the flood story:
http://www.earth-history.com/Sumer/sumer-eridu-genesis.htm
http://www.earth-history.com/Sumer/sumer-flood-story.htm
sources to help develop their early theological writings.
Whether they knew of the Zodiac remains to be demonstrated.
That the Christians used Zodiac-inspired theology in the formation of their own is utterly
unsubstantiated (whereas their use of Jewish theology is demonstrable).
Are you suggesting that the sacred-text source is similar to the Genesis story?
At first blush, it doesn't seem all that remarkable (but maybe it is!).
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioThe Christ with the oversized Johnson sounds like Thor 🙂
There is no doubt that from early Christianity, there was a cross-fertilization process between
Judeo-Christianity and the Gentile religions of the area, and especially further influences from
the West as Christianity became dominant in modern-day Europe.
Nemesio
The link below refers specifically to Constantine's adaptation of the Sol Invictus cult to a Christian form (and a lot more besides):
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/c/christ_constantine_sol_invictus.html
It's a lot better than the link I posted earlier in this thread!
Originally posted by NemesioAgain: Aren't the 12 tribes theological in nature? As far as I know (which is not much, granted) there is no historical proof for exactly 12 tribes apart from religious texts.
You misread what I wrote. There can be no doubt that the proto-Jews used Babylonian
sources to help develop their early theological writings.
Whether they knew of the Zodiac remains to be demonstrated.
That the Christians used Zodiac-inspired theology in the formation of their own is utterly
unsubstantiated (whereas their use of Jewish theology is d ...[text shortened]... esis story?
At first blush, it doesn't seem all that remarkable (but maybe it is!).
Nemesio
Originally posted by PalynkaFancy some cut and paste with your breakfast?
Again: Aren't the 12 tribes theological in nature? As far as I know (which is not much, granted) there is no historical proof for exactly 12 tribes apart from religious texts.
Here's an article on astrology & the twelve tribes (written by a astronomer !).
http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi25.htm
BREASTPLATE OF THE HIGH PRIEST
Which Tribe to Which Jewel?
by F. Graham Millar
Halifax Centre, RASC (Royal Astronomical Society of Canada)
ABSTRACT OF ARTICLE
According to Exodus, the jewels on the breastplate of the High Priest were engraved with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel-- but we are not told which tribe to which jewel.
A comparison between the jewels and the modern birthstones establishes the order in which the jewels stood for the signs of the zodiac, provided one reads the order of the jewels in three columns of four, following the Egyptian calendar of three seasons of four months each.
Jewish tradition knows the sign of the zodiac attributed to each tribe, so we can infer which tribe to which jewel. However, the names and zodiacal standards of the tribes were probably assigned after the settlement in Canaan, hence the signatures on the jewels must have been the signs of the zodiac.
Addressing 12 + 1:
http://www.inner.org/responsa/leter1/RESP5.HTM
When a leap year occurs in the Jewish calendar, there is a 13th month to the year. That 13th month corresponds to the tribe of Levi. This alludes to the inner pregnancy which the entire year possesses. Then the intent of Kabbalah is to include all the 12 simple letters together, as the 13th includes all the 12 from within. This is the level of Levi.
A further motley assortment of links:
http://www.astrologynow.com/Astrology.401.htm
http://www.ancientties.com/12%20tribes%20%20and%20the%20zodiac%20Ancient%20Ties%20neckwear.htm
http://www.inner.org/education/educ30.htm