At what order of complexity...

Originally posted by RJHinds
It doesn't matter if it is an amoeba, a fish, a rat, a monkey, or whatever that is changed into a man. The only real difference between the two fairy tales is that the KISS is replaced by TIME. TIME that you can't check on is the magic spell that makes evolution a science instead of just another fairy tale.

No, the kiss is replaced by time, imperfect replication, an ever changing environment and countless generations, but nice try.

Originally posted by KellyJay
A billion years is a long time, but it does not mean a lot of time overcomes
all issues. I don't know why you think having a lot of time is enough to
have life start, and if necessary have it start over and over again. Time
isn't an answer to all problems, it is timing that matters! If you have all the
necessary parts but they are all not together at an ...[text shortened]... art, then all bets are off and all the
randomness I concern myself with are meaningless.
Kelly

As I said, you miss my point that it happened because the hand of God was behind it. It was destined.

Can you not see the genius in devising a beginning to life that unGodly men could look to later and declare that it happened on its own?

Faith is the only way man can come to God, through Jesus Christ. It's not going to be spelled out in nature by how quickly it took life to form, nor by the fossil record.

It's nature. What else IS nature but the hand of God?

Originally posted by C Hess
If you throw two dice and get six and five, and then keep throwing those dice, in time you're
going to get six and five again. If you have the ingredients for life in large quantities in a
limited space (such as the bottom of the oceans), sooner or later the right ingredients will
mix. What are the odds that just the right conditions would occur at just ...[text shortened]... n that on a primordial earth, you would
have a lot more than just those two dice, so to speak.

An ocean is still a limited space, time doesn't help you if you don't have
all you need to make it work so throwing the dice a trillion times a day
will get you nothing if what is needed isn't there. Throwing the dice a
trillion times a day if all the ingredients are there but under the wrong
conditions will get you nothing no matter how long you throw the dice!

As soon as you start mixing all the ingredients anywhere, things are in a
constant state of flux, if you have all the parts but they are not in the
proper condition like you require right handed parts and you have a mix,
then the mix will stop you. If the conditions are to hot, to cold, to wet, to
dry, or there are other substances around that are toxic to your so called
life form, a trillion throws of the dice will get you nothing all you have is
a non-starter.

The only thing you can really base this theory on is hope and belief.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
What went wrong? We have not even gotten to the point as far as I'm
concern that you can show me how the first living cell came about! If you
want to jump into the vast array of life we have now and ponder its
misfortune I'd say go for it, we have left the discussion on how life began to
look at it now. When I discuss the start of life with a non-believ ...[text shortened]... ithout me more times than not as far as I'm
concern to get out of discussion we were in.
Kelly

Anything before the first functioning cell is simpler chemistry. If the cell can be shown to
constantly evolve as a result of changing conditions, and it has, surely anything simpler
than that (such as the preconditions for life) could have come about through even simpler
chemical processes?

Originally posted by KellyJay
An ocean is still a limited space, time doesn't help you if you don't have
all you need to make it work so throwing the dice a trillion times a day
will get you nothing if what is needed isn't there. Throwing the dice a
trillion times a day if all the ingredients are there but under the wrong
conditions will get you nothing no matter how long you throw ...[text shortened]...
a non-starter.

The only thing you can really base this theory on is hope and belief.
Kelly

But what was needed was there, all the ingredients were there, the right conditions were there, the right mix of parts was there.

The chef in this recipe was God. Give Him some credit, would you?

The only thing you can really base this theory on is hope and belief.

That's right. That's the whole point of it. All that is needed is that it's a possible theory. That's good enough for them, and good enough for God that man has a true choice, between a God-involved beginning or a beginning not involving God. Faith is the only thing that can make the right decision.

Originally posted by Suzianne
As I said, you miss my point that it happened because the hand of God was behind it. It was destined.

Can you not see the genius in devising a beginning to life that unGodly men could look to later and declare that it happened on its own?

Faith is the only way man can come to God, through Jesus Christ. It's not going to be spelled out by how quickly it took, nor by the fossil record.

It's nature. What else IS nature but the hand of God?

I'll always agree if God did it, then its done by God. With those that believe
life came from non-life without scripture I'll argue the odds. With those
that believe you can mix those beliefs with scripture, I have other issues.

If evolution is true, that means that death is a natural part of the process of
life, it always was. If that is true, why in the world would Jesus need to save
us from a naturally occurring event? The wages of sin is death, but if death
is just a part of nature, why bother? Just meet us when we die, no big deal!

I do not believe you will miss out on God if you accept Jesus Christ as your
Lord, if you believe in evolution, Jesus is greater!
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Okay, so DNA isn't the blue print of life. Exactly how does the body know
how to form itself?

It doesn't. It's the result of the cells coming in contact with the proper nourishment; the
right molecules interacting. It's automatic, and any cells that result in bad consequences,
such as too thin blood vessels and what not, cannot survive the process and dies.
That's why everything is just so, the heart here, brain there and all that, because that's
the cell makeup that survived evolution.

Originally posted by Suzianne
But what was needed was there, all the ingredients were there, the right conditions were there, the right mix of parts was there.

The chef in this recipe was God. Give Him some credit, would you?

I believe God did it as scriptures proclaim it, I do indeed give God credit. I
do not see how it could occur without God, to many things have to be just
right over a very long period of time.
Kelly

Originally posted by C Hess
It doesn't. It's the result of the cells coming in contact with the proper nourishment; the
right molecules interacting. It's automatic, and any cells that result in bad consequences,
such as too thin blood vessels and what not, cannot survive the process and dies.
That's why everything is just so, the heart here, brain there and all that, because that's
the cell makeup that survived evolution.

Are you serious? It all just happens! Okay, if that is what you believe I
cannot argue with that!
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'll always agree if God did it, then its done by God. With those that believe
life came from non-life without scripture I'll argue the odds. With those
that believe you can mix those beliefs with scripture, I have other issues.

If evolution is true, that means that death is a natural part of the process of
life, it always was. If that is true, why in ...[text shortened]... if you accept Jesus Christ as your
Lord, if you believe in evolution, Jesus is greater!
Kelly

Because it is NOT mere biological death that Jesus came to save us from, but eternal death of the soul.

Jesus said, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." -- John 10:10

Eternal life, not mere biological life, yes?



Evolution is true so that man has another choice, one not involving God, so that the choice is clear. If it were abundantly scientifically clear that we were made by God, as was all we can see, then who in their right mind would not choose God, since obviously not choosing God would abundantly clearly be the wrong choice. We're not shown what the correct choice is, except through the Bible, and even that has not been accepted by atheists as proof of God. We are not shown the correct choice so that we can have free will in choosing our own destiny so no one can have any appeal chance after Judgement. We live or die by our own God-given choice.

Originally posted by KellyJay
An ocean is still a limited space, time doesn't help you if you don't have
all you need to make it work so throwing the dice a trillion times a day
will get you nothing if what is needed isn't there. Throwing the dice a
trillion times a day if all the ingredients are there but under the wrong
conditions will get you nothing no matter how long you throw ...[text shortened]...
a non-starter.

The only thing you can really base this theory on is hope and belief.
Kelly

If all the elements (dice) are in place and constantly moving about (throwing them) - as
they would on a finite ocean floor with volcanic activity and all - time is all you need
before the right molecules interact to form the first proteins (a specific number sequence),
the first RNA and so on, and so forth. It's inevitable with time, if the right conditions are in
place.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Because it is NOT mere biological death that Jesus came to save us from, but eternal death of the soul.

Jesus said, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." -- John 10:10

Eternal life, not mere biological life, yes?

Look, I'm not trying to nit pick on your beliefs. I'm over joyed you know
Jesus Christ! I'm not trying to insult you, diminish your heart felt beliefs in
any fashion or form. I don't draw the distinction you do between this type
of death or that one. I believe and agree with you that Jesus came to save
us, that we might have life and have it more abundantly. I didn't know what
life really was until I became a Christian, I was so wrapped up in my desires
to really grasp it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Are you serious? It all just happens! Okay, if that is what you believe I
cannot argue with that!
Kelly

It is no stranger than if you drop a rock from a mile high it falls to the ground. It doesn't
"know" how to fall to the ground, and the cell doesn't "know" how to replicate itself when it
comes in contact with the proper proteins. To suggest that it does is plain silly.

Originally posted by C Hess
If all the elements (dice) are in place and constantly moving about (throwing them) - as
they would on a finite ocean floor with volcanic activity and all - time is all you need
before the right molecules interact to form the first proteins (a specific number sequence),
the first RNA and so on, and so forth. It's inevitable with time, if the right conditions are in
place.

Each time you throw the dice a result happens, you believe if I understand
you that life is like a lock and we are trying to hit the right sequence and
once done it opens and pow there is life.

I look at it as you have X amount of material and you start mixing it in the
environment it is in which could be good or bad. Either way, every time
things mix they change, so if for a brief moment in time the mixture alters
what is there into something toxic to life all bets are off. If you lose some
part of the puzzle because it was there before another part was ready you
lose out. It isn't like a lock opening, it is like hitting a moving target with
only a limited number of bullets with no one aiming.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
If evolution is true, that means that death is a natural part of the process of
life, it always was. If that is true, why in the world would Jesus need to save
us from a naturally occurring event? The wages of sin is death, but if death
is just a part of nature, why bother? Just meet us when we die, no big deal!

Seems about right to me. 🙂