At what order of complexity...

Originally posted by C Hess
It is no stranger than if you drop a rock from a mile high it falls to the ground. It doesn't
"know" how to fall to the ground, and the cell doesn't "know" how to replicate itself when it
comes in contact with the proper proteins. To suggest that it does is plain silly.

I beg to differ, a rock is acting on the forces that are in play. You show me
the force that makes blood clot only when required and no longer!
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Each time you throw the dice a result happens, you believe if I understand
you that life is like a lock and we are trying to hit the right sequence and
once done it opens and pow there is life.

I look at it as you have X amount of material and you start mixing it in the
environment it is in which could be good or bad. Either way, every time
things mi ...[text shortened]... s like hitting a moving target with
only a limited number of bullets with no one aiming.
Kelly

Close, but not quite right. The dice example was meant to illustrate how odds are
meaningless in a discussion such as this. We know it happened, we're alive after all. We're
trying to understand how life first began. We know that all we need to support the myriad
of life forms in the world today is some form of self-replicating molecule, the first primitive
cell, if you will. Once that first cell form exists, it will duplicate and unless the environment
changes too drastically, with every duplication the new generations will have specimens
better adapted to the changing environment than others. Those survive and as time passes
and you get a larger variation in forms of life, it's all but impossible to stop it all together. In
fact, the kind of event required to exterminate all forms of life is so disastrous that it'd
propably take the whole solar system with it. We know that some bacteria can survive in
space even.

So, the dice example illustrates that with time (possibly on the first throw even, since it is a
chance event) it will hit that right combination that initiates the first self-replicating
molecules, and from there it's a not so smooth, but inevitable process that leads to more
complicated cells, and eventually to multi-cellular organisms. Not because the cells "know"
how to bond together and cooperate, but because of what the cells contain, DNA,
ribosomes and all that.

Originally posted by C Hess
Close, but not quite right. The dice example was meant to illustrate how odds are
meaningless in a discussion such as this. We know it happened, we're alive after all. We're
trying to understand how life first began. We know that all we need to support the myriad
of life forms in the world today is some form of self-replicating molecule, the first primi ...[text shortened]... nd together and cooperate, but because of what the cells contain, DNA,
ribosomes and all that.

I don't think either one of us is in denial that life is here. The discussion is
how it got here, and if there is a why, why? I have no issue looking at the
complexity of life and believing it is far beyond all of us! I actually hold us
is a high amount of regard, but we have limits. It amazes me that we can
see all the time and effort required to build cars, computers, planes, toys,
write books and so on, and know all of that is nothing compared to life, and
fail to see how something that grand could just occur haphazardly. You
pointing to various living systems and saying look they live does not
address why it is a living system. Systems have start/stops they have parts
that hold form, they have different pieces working independently of each
other yet preforming a joint function. Stating your beliefs isn't showing me
how everything I said could go wrong would be over come.

Lets just agree to disagree.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I beg to differ, a rock is acting on the forces that are in play. You show me
the force that makes blood clot only when required and no longer!
Kelly

Well, first of all, it doesn't only happen when required. When the process is triggered inside
the vessels, you can have a heart attack, stroke or any number of unpleasant experiences.
But when you cut yourself, platelets (tiny cells that's lining your vessels if I remember
correctly) come in contact with other cells in the blood, and when they do, the inevitable
result is that they form a plug, the blood clots. I'm sure you can just google it, and you'll get
a more detailed explanation of how it works, but be warned: any text you find will most
likely use figure of speech, like platelets "finding" a cut and "joining" together to form a clot.
Don't take that literally. They're just a special form of cell, without brains or inherent
knowledge about how to deal with different situations.

Originally posted by C Hess
Well, first of all, it doesn't only happen when required. When the process is triggered inside
the vessels, you can have a heart attack, stroke or any number of unpleasant experiences.
But when you cut yourself, platelets (tiny cells that's lining your vessels if I remember
correctly) come in contact with other cells in the blood, and when they do, the ...[text shortened]... orm of cell, without brains or inherent
knowledge about how to deal with different situations.

I don't see this going any where, you see stop/starts as just a no big deal
type of thing that would occur 100% of the time, well because it just would,
I think it is a complex part of any system that has to be well thought out.
Kelly

Originally posted by C Hess
If all the elements (dice) are in place and constantly moving about (throwing them) - as
they would on a finite ocean floor with volcanic activity and all - time is all you need
before the right molecules interact to form the first proteins (a specific number sequence),
the first RNA and so on, and so forth. It's inevitable with time, if the right conditions are in
place.

The Central Dogma of Biology

The central dogma of molecular biology explains that DNA codes for RNA, which codes for proteins. DNA is the molecule of heredity that passes from parents to offspring. It contains the instructions for building RNA and proteins, which make up the structure of the body and carry out most of its functions.


Inside the cells of all living things, tiny molecular machines are constantly reading the information in DNA and using it to build proteins. In exploring the activity below, you will learn about the three types of RNA are essential to this process: messenger RNA (mRNA), transfer RNA (tRNA), and ribosomal RNA (rRNA).

YouTube

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Central Dogma of Biology

[b]The central dogma of molecular biology explains that DNA codes for RNA, which codes for proteins. DNA is the molecule of heredity that passes from parents to offspring. It contains the instructions for building RNA and proteins, which make up the structure of the body and carry out most of its functions.


Inside the ...[text shortened]... A), transfer RNA (tRNA), and ribosomal RNA (rRNA).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3fOXt4MrOM[/b]

Hey, Kelly, this is what I mean. When you talk about blind, biological functions, "parts" that
do the same thing over and over, because, well, the laws of chemistry won't allow them to
do anything else unless the conditions change, when you talk about these biochemical
reactions in terms of fine-tuned machinery, you can't help but wonder if there mustn't also
be a fine-tuner. It's a trick your mind plays on you when using such a language. The reason
the fine-tuner is not required is because it's not really a machinery, but biochemical
reactions. Reactions that can't help but do the same things over and over with varying
results, exactly the same as when a rock can't help but fall to the ground and smash in
different ways. It's all part of the same continuum of cause and effect, what we typically
call natural laws.

Originally posted by KellyJay
.. the force that makes blood clot only when required and no longer!
Kelly

I'm pretty sure that blood-clotting is a well understood phenomenon.
And to imply it happens perfectly is wrong - sometimes it doesn't clot
when it should and sometimes it clots when it shouldn't.

Originally posted by C Hess
Hey, Kelly, this is what I mean. When you talk about blind, biological functions, "parts" that
do the same thing over and over, because, well, the laws of chemistry won't allow them to
do anything else unless the conditions change, when you talk about these biochemical
reactions in terms of fine-tuned machinery, you can't help but wonder if there mustn' ...[text shortened]... It's all part of the same continuum of cause and effect, what we typically
call natural laws.

What seems to be a problem with cells making themselves for evolutionists is that I haven't seen a coherent explanation of how this could have happened quickly enough for all the parts to survive to make the cell in the very beginning.

That is, DNA has coded instructions that are copied or transcribed into RNA from which only left-handed amino acids are chained together in a specific order to form proteins. However, as I understand it, protein enzymes and machines made of protein had to be in existence already in order for any of this to happen. And what about all the other parts of the cell?

Originally posted by RJHinds
What seems to be a problem with cells making themselves for evolutionists is that I haven't seen a coherent explanation of how this could have happened quickly enough for all the parts to survive to make the cell in the very beginning.

That is, DNA has coded instructions that are copied or transcribed into RNA from which only left-handed amino acids are ...[text shortened]... nce already in order for any of this to happen. And what about all the other parts of the cell?

"How life evolved: 10 steps to the first cells": http://tinyurl.com/pa5h9cs

Originally posted by C Hess
"How life evolved: 10 steps to the first cells": http://tinyurl.com/pa5h9cs

The electrochemical gradient between the alkaline vent fluid and the acidic seawater leads to the spontaneous formation of acetyl phosphate and pyrophospate, which act just like adenosine triphosphate or ATP, the chemical that powers living cells.

These molecules drove the formation of amino acids – the building blocks of proteins – and nucleotides, the building blocks for RNA and DNA.

How do you think that explains the formation of proteins without RNA and DNA that included the coded information for how to make them? Do you have a Youtube video that shows what is meant here? I like Youtube videos.

Originally posted by RJHinds
The electrochemical gradient between the alkaline vent fluid and the acidic seawater leads to the spontaneous formation of acetyl phosphate and pyrophospate, which act just like adenosine triphosphate or ATP, the chemical that powers living cells.

These molecules drove the formation of amino acids – the building blocks of proteins – and nucleotides, the building blocks for RNA and DNA.

How many of these words do you understand?
My considered opinion is NOT MANY.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
How many of these words do you understand?
My considered opinion is NOT MANY.

Probably slightly more than you, that is why I called for a Youtube video, because this explains nothing of importance to me or anyone else, I bet.

Originally posted by RJHinds
How do you think that explains the formation of proteins without RNA and DNA that included the coded information for how to make them? Do you have a Youtube video that shows what is meant here? I like Youtube videos.

Sorry, I don't know of any youtube clip that explains this particular hypothesis, but if you'd
only kept reading to point 5:

Thermal currents and diffusion within the vent pores concentrated larger molecules
like nucleotides, driving the formation of RNA and DNA – and providing an ideal setting for
their evolution into the world of DNA and proteins.

You know what? I found this on youtube. Very interesting, at least as far as I had time to
watch it: YouTube

Originally posted by C Hess
Well, first of all, it doesn't only happen when required. When the process is triggered inside
the vessels, you can have a heart attack, stroke or any number of unpleasant experiences.
But when you cut yourself, platelets (tiny cells that's lining your vessels if I remember
correctly) come in contact with other cells in the blood, and when they do, the ...[text shortened]... orm of cell, without brains or inherent
knowledge about how to deal with different situations.

Biology admits teleological explanations. It is different from physics in that respect. The chicken crossed the road to get to the other side.

This does not, however, mean that the purpose of evolution is to create humans. Certainly teleological explanations are not admitted for abiogenesis. But once life has started then cells start behaving with a purpose, the purpose may be stereotypical and evolved, but a sentence such as: "the pathogen follows a chemical trail in order to find a suitable site of infection." are perfectly valid.

What KellyJay and RJHinds are attempting to do is make our explanations of the whole of nature teleological. The fault with that line of reasoning is an ancient one, Aristotle had teleological explanations for natural phenomena when he shouldn't have. What I think is that the ability to act with a purpose towards an end is an emergent phenomenon associated with life, which supervenes on levels which do not have these properties. The mistake is to think that because the higher levels have this property the lower levels must also.