Atheists are more fun

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Son, this indepth reply is too intensely personalized; too all encompasing; and too well crafted to ignore or dismiss with an executive summary reply. Its major disconnect (which wriggles like a superman worm throughout) is the premise that an all powerful being thinks in an identical manner to our mode of limited rational process and conceptual perspec ...[text shortened]... o a) later today. Thanks again for weighing in on such an unsuspecting, vanilla thread. (gb)
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Do you figure a real god would arbitrarily assign women to be on a lower status line than men? If so, it would stand to reason it would have an agenda.

It just seems to me a god would not have such an agenda.

It would know, for instance, that gays clock in at something like 5% of the population no matter the century and religious people trying to 'pray away the gay' don't have a clue as to what goes on inside the head of ANYONE much less gays or other minorities.

It seems clear to me a god would understand exactly how many gays per generation will come into the world and the fact there are still gays in the same proportions as 1,000 years ago, 2,000 years ago, 3,000 years ago says that if there were a god associated with humanity it would in fact know they are here, what proportion of the population and the fact that they are here would be a good indication that this god either approves or tolerates their existence since one swipe of its metaphorical hand, the DNA could be altered at any time by such a god, so as to make gays not appear in the next generation.

That said, that hasn't happened, ergo sum, the alleged god approves or tolerates gays.

That said, the fact that humans don't tolerate gays historically, at least in the Abrahamic religions, says they would be going against what a god would tolerate.

It just says to me, it is an man made artifact for man made reasons.

Originally posted by Ullr

Your concern in noted and appreciated but unnecessary. I believe I will be among my ancestors and content to be so. I realize this differs from your belief but they are just beliefs after all.

The weak, knee jerk notion of hanging on to a grampy and granny strikes me as being
unworthy of you. Incorrectly assumed you were objective and analytical in your search.
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Originally posted by sonhouse

Do you figure a real god would arbitrarily assign women to be on a lower status line than men? If so, it would stand to reason it would have an agenda.

It just seems to me a god would not have such an agenda.

It would know, for instance, that gays clock in at something like 5% of the population no matter the century and religious people trying to 'p ...[text shortened]... god would tolerate.

It just says to me, it is an man made artifact for man made reasons.

Sonhouse, We know each other quite well. We're both aware of each other's real or imagined octane and wattage as well as our demonstrated idiosyncdasies. One we share is the inadvertent social error of running rough shod over less assertive players in a group conversation. So, for starters, let's agree on scout's honor to limit acceleration to two nickels for now.

a) "Here is my problem with the Abrahemic religions: Lets back up a few centuries, say a few thou before the OT. Now, your god is supposed to be omniscient, right?" Yes. He knows and has alway known all the knowable on earth, below earth, in Heaven and beyond... as it has been and as it is now and as it shall be tomorrow and next week and next month and throughout 2013, etc.

(to be continued)

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Olde Phart Grampy luvs you guys, each and every one. That's why he squints, as in his profile photo, and winces in understated agony over the prospect of the permanent agonies that will be experienced by those who reject the grace gift of happiness forever (purchased by Christ's agonies in temporary separation from The Father on two rough hewn lengths of wood on a hill named Golgotha, place of the dead, for you and gb).

...he...winces in understated agony over the prospect of the permanent agonies that will be experienced by those who reject the grace gift of happiness forever...

Yes, "wincing" is certainly an understated manifestation of agony, especially when what bedevils you is the thought that other people will undergo permanent agonies unless they accept the grace gift.

I don't want you to experience even a momentary iota of the agony that you imagine these people may experience (and that you may believe some people who have passed, are experiencing now).

You have a concern for the there-and-then hypothetical, I have a concern for the here-and-now actual. What measures would you decide are justified, even demanded of you, if you were to do more than wince? What if they did not work? How sad would your life be? Much actual here-and-now sadness has been caused by people trying to save souls from hypothetical there-and-then agonies.

I suggest that you take a serious look at universal reconciliation. It could relieve your wincing agony.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation

Originally posted by JS357

...he...winces in understated agony over the prospect of the permanent agonies that will be experienced by those who reject the grace gift of happiness forever...

Yes, "wincing" is certainly an understated manifestation of agony, especially when what bedevils you is the thought that other people will undergo permanent agonies unless d relieve [b]your wincing agony.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation[/b]

"I suggest that you take a serious look at universal reconciliation." Trash. All have the opportunity; some will accept the gift and some won't. God's Omniscience allows for all possible outcomes of human volition. No surprise. Nothing overlooked or left to chance. He knows what He's doing. He cares about me from the strength of His character and integrity. He has a plan and purpose for my life. I trust and love Him. No worries or fears beset me. Each day is fantastic. His presence is responsible for any tranquility, humility, relaxed attitude, compassion, loyalty to my country, concern for those I know and love. (gb)
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Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"I suggest that you take a serious look at universal reconciliation." Trash. All have the opportunity; some will accept the gift and some won't. God's Omniscience allows for all possible outcomes of human volition. No surprise. Nothing overlooked or left to chance. He knows what He's doing. He cares about me from the strength of His character and integr ...[text shortened]... xed attitude, compassion, loyalty to my country, concern for those I know and love. (gb)
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No worries or fears beset me. Each day is fantastic. His presence is responsible for any tranquility, humility, relaxed attitude, compassion, loyalty to my country, concern for those I know and love.

I guess I should take your statement that you wince in agony, with a grain of salt. Either one or the other of your statements here is false.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
The weak, knee jerk notion of hanging on to a grampy and granny strikes me as being
unworthy of you. Incorrectly assumed you were objective and analytical in your search.
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No it's not weak nor knee jerk. My belief is based on my own father's near death experience from when he had an aneurism at the age of 21 and survived. He was dead on the operating table for a few minutes and saw himself leaving his body in the operating room and then entering a room where he saw his ancestors there waiting for him. Then he was brought back.

It's the best and only description of the after life, from someone I trust, that I have to go by.

It's unfortunate that you feel the need to be insulting towards those that have a different belief then you. Typical.

Originally posted by Ullr
No it's not weak nor knee jerk. My belief is based on my own father's near death experience from when he had an aneurism at the age of 21 and survived. He was dead on the operating table for a few minutes and saw himself leaving his body in the operating room and then entering a room where he saw his ancestors there waiting for him. Then he was brought back. ...[text shortened]... feel the need to be insulting towards those that have a different belief then you. Typical.

It's a description of a hallucination by a person having their mind altered by drugs and oxygen
deprivation.


It's not a matter of trust, I am sure your father really had the experiences he relayed to you.

It's just that those experiences weren't real.


We are our brains, we are physical stuff.

When that physical stuff stops working, we cease to exist.

This is true beyond any and all reasonable doubt.


There is nothing we are capable of experiencing that we are not capable of hallucinating.


So personal testimony of such experiences are near worthless as evidence of anything.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"I suggest that you take a serious look at universal reconciliation." Trash. All have the opportunity; some will accept the gift and some won't. God's Omniscience allows for all possible outcomes of human volition. No surprise. Nothing overlooked or left to chance. He knows what He's doing. He cares about me from the strength of His character and integr ...[text shortened]... xed attitude, compassion, loyalty to my country, concern for those I know and love. (gb)
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You remind me of the Opening of the Hitchhikers Guide to the galaxy.

The Vogons show up to destroy the earth to make way for an interstellar bypass and when
someone complains that we had no warning they say that a notice has been placed in
an interstellar planning office in some other solar system for years and all we had to do was
read it....



There is negative evidence of your gods existence.

No rational person could possibly justify believing in or worshipping your god without any evidence
let alone in the face of evidence against your gods existence.

Also your god is not offering ANYTHING I want. There is no 'gift'.

An eternity of anything will become torture... An eternity of sucking up to your idiot god would
START as torture.


Nothing even remotely recognisable as me would be able to enjoy heaven.

Your theology contains ONLY hells.

Lies and hells, that's what you peddle.

Originally posted by JS357

No worries or fears beset me. Each day is fantastic. His presence is responsible for any tranquility, humility, relaxed attitude, compassion, loyalty to my country, concern for those I know and love.

[bI guess I should take your statement that you wince in agony, with a grain of salt. Either one or the other of your statements here is false.[/b]

"Olde Phart Grampy luvs you guys, each and every one. That's why he squints, as in his profile photo, and winces in understated agony over the prospect of the permanent agonies that will be experienced by those who reject the grace gift of happiness forever (purchased by Christ's agonies in temporary separation from The Father on two rough hewn lengths of wood on a hill named Golgotha, place of the dead, for you and gb).

JS, please unsalt your 'statement taker'. Listen again for the first time. "Wince" and "Squint", yes. Why? Because it pains me to think of you and others here who stand excellent chances of frying forever (alone except for your memories of times you said 'NO' to His Grace Gift) in the Lake of Fire.

Originally posted by Ullr

No it's not weak nor knee jerk. My belief is based on my own father's near death experience from when he had an aneurism at the age of 21 and survived. He was dead on the operating table for a few minutes and saw himself leaving his body in the operating room and then entering a room where he saw his ancestors there waiting for him. Then he was brought bac ...[text shortened]... feel the need to be insulting towards those that have a different belief then you. Typical.

Many heart pumps stop beating; the bodies still live. Death, Ullr, occurs when the person's brain waves cease.
What does this sentimental Bio-Journey have to do with your choice of a permanent address for eternity?
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Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Olde Phart Grampy luvs you guys, each and every one. That's why he squints, as in his profile photo, and winces in understated agony over the prospect of the permanent agonies that will be experienced by those who reject the grace gift of happiness forever (purchased by Christ's agonies in temporary separation from The Father on two rough hewn l ...[text shortened]... r your memories of times you said 'NO' to His Grace Gift) in the [b]Lake of Fire.[/b]

You pains are of your own making, then, but I do advise that you may have mistaken me for one of your stereotyped future fryers.

Originally posted by JS357

You pains are of your own making, then, but I do advise that you may have mistaken me for one of your stereotyped future fryers.

Good. First and last rounds are on me!

Originally posted by googlefudge
It's a description of a hallucination by a person having their mind altered by drugs and oxygen
deprivation.


It's not a matter of trust, I am sure your father really had the experiences he relayed to you.

It's just that those experiences weren't real.


We are our brains, we are physical stuff.

When that physical stuff stops working, we c ...[text shortened]... .


So personal testimony of such experiences are near worthless as evidence of anything.

googlefudge, you may well be right but you don't know this for a fact any more than I do.

"When that physical stuff stops working, we cease to exist."

That's your opinion. Mine differs. I realize I cannot prove it and thus I don't try to shove my beliefs down others throats. My comments were in direct reply to GB anyhow.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Many heart pumps stop beating; the bodies still live. Death, Ullr, occurs when the person's brain waves cease.
What does this sentimental Bio-Journey have to do with your choice of a permanent address for eternity?
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"What does this sentimental Bio-Journey have to do with your choice of a permanent address for eternity?"

Nothing. I only think it slightly possible that this "hallucination" or "sentimental bio journey" as you and googlefudge have called is a glimpse into what might happen when we die. By no means do I claim that this proves anything regarding afterlife. I've stated previously that I believe I will go to be with my ancestors when I die. This is just a belief and one common to my pagan religion and nothing more. Unlike you I don't claim to know exactly what happens when we die. I realize the answer may be nothing. I also realize the answers you are giving here in this thread are bullcrap.

Oh well, we will just have to disagree.