1. Standard memberAgerg
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    20 Dec '12 12:27
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    You have neither frame of reference nor the objective focus to aquire one.
    Until such time as life situations prompt you to question your own long held
    assumptions, there's little we can accomplish on your behalf. Wondering if
    there'd be controversy if I did a thread about the weather or ballpoint pens.
    -
    If you don't mind me asking, given that many atheists are even more intolerant of religious nonsense than myself, why do you waste your time arguing with us at all!??? 😕

    It is clear you have no answers to our questions that are acceptable - and we're never going to suppose there is any truth in your religion until someone comes along, sees things from our point of view and explains things in terms we are happy with.


    This situation itself is an indication that your "God", if it exists!, is either stupid or is cruel - since for an entity with its supposed knowledge it should know better than to think our minds will will be swayed by the emissaries it sends out to convert us. As such - even if we our bound for hell, the culpability for this lies squarely at the feet of your god for being so short-sighted.
  2. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    20 Dec '12 12:541 edit
    Originally posted by Agerg

    If you don't mind me asking, given that many atheists are even more intolerant of religious nonsense than myself, why do you waste your time arguing with us at all!??? 😕

    It is clear you have no answers to our questions that are acceptable - and we're never going to suppose there is any truth in your religion until someone comes along, sees things from ou , the culpability for this lies squarely at the feet of your god for being so short-sighted.
    Investing, not arguing, because I happen to care about your eternal destiny. Your second and third paragraphs are chock full of self serving assumptions.

    Go for the thread:

    "Weather & Ballpoint Pens"

    If your so called god really and truly cared, he'd give us good weather so that we could be comfy all of the time. That's not all. Anybody with an IQ above room temperature knows ballpoint pens leak and smudge, badly damaging documents and notes. If he's both smart and strong (and caring), why in the world did he let us invent those worthless pens in the first place. They're junk. Geeesh! And you expect me to want to have what you call a 'personal relationship' in time and eternity with a hateful jerk like that... GB, you're crazy too. Thoughts. (Agerg)
    -
  3. Joined
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    20 Dec '12 13:02
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Investing, not arguing, because I happen to care about your eternal destiny. Your second and third paragraphs are chock full of self serving assumptions.

    Go for the thread:

    [b]"Weather & Ballpoint Pens"


    If your so called god really and truly cared, he'd give us good weather so that we could be comfy all of the time. That's not all. Anybody ...[text shortened]... nd eternity with a hateful jerk like that... GB, you're crazy too. Thoughts. (Agerg)
    -[/b]
    bull-excrement.

    If you really actually cared about "our eternal destiny" and not about making yourself feel all
    warm and fuzzy you would be doing your damnedest to actually convince us.

    Which means using arguments and presenting evidence we would actually find convincing.

    Instead you post senseless drivel, and just keep asserting that we are going to hell.

    Despite having no reason or evidence to suppose that hell even exists.


    You are not doing this for us. You make no attempt to convince us.

    You are making yourself feel all warm and fuzzy and smug and superior by pretending to try to
    convert us and then feeling all smug about the fact (in your mind) that you are going to heaven
    and we are bound for hell.

    That makes you an ass. (well actually it makes you something else but robomod doesn't like it)



    And Agerg isn't making any assumptions... self serving or otherwise...

    You on the other hand are doing nothing but assume.
  4. Standard memberAgerg
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    20 Dec '12 13:241 edit
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Investing, not arguing, because I happen to care about your eternal destiny. Your second and third paragraphs are chock full of self serving assumptions.

    Go for the thread:

    [b]"Weather & Ballpoint Pens"


    If your so called god really and truly cared, he'd give us good weather so that we could be comfy all of the time. That's not all. Anybody nd eternity with a hateful jerk like that... GB, you're crazy too. Thoughts. (Agerg)
    -[/b]
    Perhaps you've always been a theist, and so you don't know how to question superstition. If that's the case, all your attempts to "invest" are doomed to failure. Why don't you answer an easier question instead, which is: "where precisely lie the self-serving assumptions in my last post"?

    As for your thread suggestion that sort of paragraph is outside of my own styling or thinking (I prefer not to set someone else up to beat down a strawman of my own creation!); as such your suggestion is declined
  5. Subscribersonhouse
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    20 Dec '12 13:25
    Here is my problem with the Abrahemic religions: Lets back up a few centuries, say a few thou before the OT. Now, your god is supposed to be omniscient, right?
    So it allegedly knows every human, every animal, every vegetable on the planet from the time the Earth was born and will know all that till the time the Earth gets destroyed by whatever.

    Now, here are humans from many many thousands of years ago.

    Your god never mentioned to them about heaven, hell, worshiping one god, coming of the Christ child and all that.

    So thousands of years go by, thousands of creation myths evolve.

    Then about 4000 years ago give or take, a new word gets around.

    The old testament is born, JC is allegedly predicted.

    So now there is a new creation myth (well not new exactly, even more ancient tales almost exactly correspond to the OT 7 day creation myth thousands of year before the OT)

    But here it comes in full force in the OT.

    But the word is given to a small minority of people living near Jerusalem and surround.

    So only a small minority of the entire human race is given a peek at the word of a god.

    This does not come out to me as something a god would have done.

    Make itself known to a minor tribe 4,000 or more years ago but nobody else.

    It seems to me a real god would have revealed itself to the entire human race at once, maybe even the more intelligent animals, dolphins and such.

    But no, we get it the alleged word in a book passed down from generation to generation where this alleged god seems to only want to work through ancient Jews, then 2000 years later, through Jesus and so forth.

    Meanwhile, the rest of the human race, the 99% around the world, gets zero in the way of this incredible insight from this alleged god.

    Do you see my problem here?

    An omniscient god would have ZERO problems talking to EVERY human on the planet at the same time or in serial time, it would be no more of a problem for this alleged god then it would be for a human to breathe.

    So that didn't happen. That tells me in BIG letters, all this was the imagining of men who wanted to control local ruffians and to put a codified message to women they were lower on the totem pole than men.

    This kind of codified discrimination would never come from a real god.

    Another line of evidence the whole thing was just made up by men with the idea of control of people and putting women in their supposed place.

    Then there is the treatment of homosexuality.

    We still have gays today.

    So it is clear as the nose on my face it is not a choice, it comes as part of being human, just another variation on humanity, like short, tall, red hair and so forth.

    But the OT clearly states they should be put to death, but of course the NT allows you to cherry pick which passage you follow and which you don't.

    It is also very clear all those edicts were generated by men who know next to nothing about the true nature of humanity, where gays and lesbians are part and parcel of the human race, having survived as a cultural phenomena for thousands of years.

    So it is clear this second line of discrimination is just the bleating of men making up what they think is morality, where they are the masters of morality and anyone out of that circle is damned.

    This would not come from a real god, who would know exactly the status of humanity and all the variations thereof. This god would know men and women are exactly equal, gays and straights are exactly equal.

    The fact that these discrimination's are codified in the OT is proof to me the people writing those tales know nothing of the true nature of humanity and is therefore all made up by men with no inspiration from ANY kind of god.

    Mankind can be very creative and persuasive, at least to other humans, and that seems to be the bottom line with religions.

    Too many creation myths, only 1% of the human race told about the Torah and such, built in discrimination against women and gays.

    That is plenty enough for me to be able to pronounce the entire edifice as man made.
  6. Joined
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    20 Dec '12 15:111 edit
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Investing, not arguing, because I happen to care about your eternal destiny. Your second and third paragraphs are chock full of self serving assumptions.

    Go for the thread:

    [b]"Weather & Ballpoint Pens"


    If your so called god really and truly cared, he'd give us good weather so that we could be comfy all of the time. That's not all. Anybody nd eternity with a hateful jerk like that... GB, you're crazy too. Thoughts. (Agerg)
    -[/b]
    "Investing, not arguing, because I happen to care about your eternal destiny."

    What a bunch of horsebleep. If you really cared about him or anyone else you'd rebel against this injustice that you have described in great detail that your god is supposedly going to impose on millions of decent human beings that happen to be buddhist, atheist, shinto, jewish, heathen, whatever. Instead your more concerned with saving your own skin and hurling threats at others that believe differently than you. And while these threats are quite descriptive and horrifying they also happen to be nothing but lies carefully crafted in order to coerce and subjugate other human beings.
  7. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    20 Dec '12 15:431 edit
    Originally posted by sonhouse

    Here is my problem with the Abrahemic religions: Lets back up a few centuries, say a few thou before the OT. Now, your god is supposed to be omniscient, right?
    So it allegedly knows every human, every animal, every vegetable on the planet from the time the Earth was born and will know all that till the time the Earth gets destroyed by whatever.

    Now, h gays.

    That is plenty enough for me to be able to pronounce the entire edifice as man made.
    Son, this indepth reply is too intensely personalized; too all encompasing; and too well crafted to ignore or dismiss with an executive summary reply. Its major disconnect (which wriggles like a superman worm throughout) is the premise that an all powerful being thinks in an identical manner to our mode of limited rational process and conceptual perspective. In order to do it justice in engaging worthwhile dialogue, I suggest we consider installments. Part Two a) later today. Thanks again for weighing in on such an unsuspecting, vanilla thread. (gb)
    -
  8. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    20 Dec '12 15:45
    Originally posted by googlefudge

    bull-excrement.

    If you really actually cared about "our eternal destiny" and not about making yourself feel all
    warm and fuzzy you would be doing your damnedest to actually convince us.

    Which means using arguments and presenting evidence we would actually find convincing.

    Instead you post senseless drivel, and just keep asserting that we are ...[text shortened]... tions... self serving or otherwise...

    You on the other hand are doing nothing but assume.
    Save it for the sake of consolidation to the Sonhouse sidebar, if you would be so kind. Thanks.
    -
  9. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    20 Dec '12 15:48
    Originally posted by Ullr
    "Investing, not arguing, because I happen to care about your eternal destiny."

    What a bunch of horsebleep. If you really cared about him or anyone else you'd rebel against this injustice that you have described in great detail that your god is supposedly going to impose on millions of decent human beings that happen to be buddhist, atheist, shinto, jewish, ...[text shortened]... to be nothing but lies carefully crafted in order to coerce and subjugate other human beings.
    Nice play of mind and speaking style. Please free to join in with the topic related conversation already in progress. Thanks.
    -
  10. Joined
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    20 Dec '12 15:55
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Save it for the sake of consolidation to the Sonhouse sidebar, if you would be so kind. Thanks.
    -
    I don't even know what that means.

    Have you ever even tried saying something plainly?

    Or is your head too far up your...
  11. Joined
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    20 Dec '12 16:12
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Nice play of mind and speaking style. Please free to join in with the topic related conversation already in progress. Thanks.
    -
    "Please free to join in with the topic related conversation already in progress. Thanks."

    Oh you mean that Atheists are more fun? Well clearly they are not as you have amply demonstrated. Your descriptive of the "worm" and eternal suffering are far more entertaining.
  12. Joined
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    20 Dec '12 16:21
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Son, this indepth reply is too intensely personalized; too all encompasing; and too well crafted to ignore or dismiss with an executive summary reply. Its major disconnect (which wriggles like a superman worm throughout) is the premise that an all powerful being thinks in an identical manner to our mode of limited rational process and conceptual perspec ...[text shortened]... o a) later today. Thanks again for weighing in on such an unsuspecting, vanilla thread. (gb)
    -
    I am not a great chess player.

    In fact I am pretty bad at it.

    There exist many people who are vastly better at chess than I am, and who can
    contemplate and execute vastly more complex chess strategies than I can/do.

    Given a chess board position, A grandmaster would undoubtedly be able to plan
    much further ahead than me and pick a far better next move than me.

    However, this doesn't mean that I can't be highly confident that certain moves
    are worse than others, and worse than the move I chose, even while not being able
    to spot all the moves that would be better than the one I chose.
    For example if I spot a move that allows my opponent to checkmate me next turn then
    I can say definitively that that move is bad.


    If we were to make the highly unwarranted assumption that your god did exist.
    And that this being is vastly superior to us in terms of intellect as well as power.

    Then this being should be able to chose courses of action that are better than the ones
    we picked because it can see and comprehend more of the options, and predict further
    ahead the consequences.

    However that does not mean that we can't still rule out some choices/methods as being
    definitively bad.


    What sonhouse is pointing out (rather nicely) is that while we couldn't necessarily predict
    or spot the better/best courses of action that a vastly superior being might be able to.
    We can spot that the alleged actions of your god are WORSE than what we could achieve
    in gods place.
    We can tell that the actions described in the bible are less moral, and less effective, and just plain
    less intelligent than we ourselves can achieve today.

    This is pretty strong evidence that this being doesn't exist, and is in fact a fairy tale made up by
    people less educated and rational and vastly more ignorant than even some contemporaries,
    let alone us today.
  13. Standard memberAgerg
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    20 Dec '12 16:29
    Hey Grampy...still waiting for you to point out how I made assumptions in the last post of mine which prompted a response from you - and how they were self serving.


    Thanks in advance 🙂
  14. Standard memberGrampy Bobby
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    20 Dec '12 17:171 edit
    Olde Phart Grampy luvs you guys, each and every one. That's why he squints, as in his profile photo, and winces in understated agony over the prospect of the permanent agonies that will be experienced by those who reject the grace gift of happiness forever (purchased by Christ's agonies in temporary separation from The Father on two rough hewn lengths of wood on a hill named Golgotha, place of the dead, for you and gb).
  15. Joined
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    20 Dec '12 17:56
    Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
    Olde Phart Grampy luvs you guys, each and every one. That's why he squints, as in his profile photo, and winces in understated agony over the prospect of the permanent agonies that will be experienced by those who reject the grace gift of happiness forever (purchased by Christ's agonies in temporary separation from The Father on two rough hewn lengths of wood on a hill named Golgotha, place of the dead, for you and gb).
    Your concern in noted and appreciated but unnecessary. I believe I will be among my ancestors and content to be so. I realize this differs from your belief but they are just beliefs after all.
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