Attributes of God

@kellyjay said
I'm afraid I disagree with your statement that those who suffer from illnesses are
being punished for some reason or another. As I pointed out, we suffer from the
consequences of our actions that can lead to such things. When it rains outside
the good and bad get wet there isn't a distinction between the two, the same
with the sunshine both enjoy it, as we all do the air ...[text shortened]... hings from our perspective we may find enjoyable and
have them kill us, painful and save our lives.

People suffering from illnesses as a result of being punished by your god was your statement, not mine, I think it's a load of rubbish, I was quoting you. The point once again is that 'we' suffering for our sins is quite different from other people (in your scenario unborn babies) suffering for our sins.

If everything that happens is your gods' will, how is it that everything according to you is not what it was designed to be? It's a massive and fundamental contradiction which you seem quite unable to see.

As for there being 'no good people and bad', a mass - murderer might be considered less good than someone who devotes their life to charitable causes, whether we like them or not.

As for you god only doing good things, that's exactly what you said, although in true fashion you're now running away from your statement. and if he 'was good', what is he now? If as you say he creates calamity, he's now a bad god then, is he, in which case what are you doing worshipping him? Thank you, god, for blessing this child with a brain tumour, I mean, really?

Put in its' simplest form so that you might be able to understand it:

According to you:

1. Your god does only good things, and everything is according to your gods' will.

2. Your god controls genetic inheritance and thus gives our hypothetical child a brain tumour.

3. A child having a brain tumour is a bad thing.

You can say 'No, no, I didn't say that' until the cows come home, but that is what you said, so:

Either:

A. Your god is a bad god.

or

B. Your god doesn't control genetic inheritance.

@indonesia-phil said
People suffering from illnesses as a result of being punished by your god was your statement, not mine, I think it's a load of rubbish, I was quoting you. The point once again is that 'we' suffering for our sins is quite different from other people (in your scenario unborn babies) suffering for our sins.

If everything that happens is your gods' will, how is it that ...[text shortened]... :

Either:

A. Your god is a bad god.

or

B. Your god doesn't control genetic inheritance.

I don't believe I have ever used to words people being punished by God with
illness if I'm not mistaken, and you can, by all means, correct me; if I did, I have
been saying that consequences for our actions have brought about many of
our illnesses and are self-inflicted. I do believe God does punish, but so do
earthly parents to help their children learn, so it isn't something that I find
offensive. Our lives here are but a vapor in time, and we all go through it, can
God use illness as a punishment, sure more times than not we are just suffering
for the things we put in motion.

We live in a universe where cause and effect take place; we see the results
when we do things in love or through hate and lust. We see what occurs when
we only care about me and mine, or when we care about others as well, and
we are given the ability to do all of the above, and the costs and prices we pay
are a direct result of someone doing good and not.

Do you think it is not right that when someone acts, the consequences for their
actions play out regardless of how good or bad they may be, for not only them,
those around them, and those that come afterward?

I'm saying that all of us can do good and bad things; there are not just good or
bad people; many like to think so as we go after one another and put them in
buckets of favored and ill-favored people. We are all flawed; we come short of
what is truly good, which makes us in need. When the standard is 'good,' not
somewhat good, 'righteous,' not somewhat righteous, or 'just,' not somewhat
just.

God does allow the good and bad to occur as we act; the fruit of our lives will
speak for themselves; the consequence will play out, and at the end of the day,
what is good and not will be fully known. Good and evil will be on full display.
When evil is judged, there will be no excuse, the fruit of our selfish zeal for evil,
our sacrificial zeal for good will be revealed, and no one will be able to say, why
judge all of the evil things as unworthy of eternity? It will be plain, and we will
be witnesses of this as life is played out.

@kellyjay said
I don't believe I have ever used to words people being punished by God with
illness if I'm not mistaken, and you can, by all means, correct me; if I did, I have
been saying that consequences for our actions have brought about many of
our illnesses and are self-inflicted.

Who created these illnesses? And, according to your beliefs, what did they create them for?

@fmf said
Who created these illnesses? And, according to your beliefs, what did they create them for?

Everything was made by God, what for isn’t an answer I could give. You needed to ask that, why?

@kellyjay said
Everything was made by God, what for isn’t an answer I could give. You needed to ask that, why?

So, if the brain tumours were made by God, and everything God does is good, then a brain tumour in a baby - like the one Indonesia Phil has mentioned - is good, is that what you believe?

@fmf said
So, if the brain tumours were made by God, and everything God does is good, then a brain tumour in a baby - like the one Indonesia Phil has mentioned - is good, is that what you believe?

I said God is good what happens here can be or not, and the way we know is how it plays out. How do you differentiate good from evil/bad? Could you even know without a distinction between the two?

@kellyjay said
How do you differentiate good from evil/bad?

Given that you worship a God figure whose supposed goodness apparently includes creating brain tumours in babies, one could ask: what enables you to differentiate between good and evil?

@kellyjay said
Everything was made by God, what for isn’t an answer I could give.

So, let me get this straight: whatever the reaon was for creating brain tumours in babies, it was good? That's what your moral compass tells you?

@fmf said
So, let me get this straight: whatever the reaon was for creating brain tumours in babies, it was good? That's what your moral compass tells you?

I've been saying that our actions and inactions have consequences; poor decisions
can lead to more than a few health issues in generations to come. Decay leads to
all kinds of breakdowns, and we are in a universe that is leaning that way instead
of life; it leads to death. We are in a cursed world because we chose badly.

We are cut off from the source of life, who is God, and in this world right now,
we will face tribulation; it is unavoidable. Like a branch of a fruit tree, it can be
cut off the tree, and it can still support fruit for a time, but since it is cut off from
the tree, its end is sure, and so are we apart from God.

@kellyjay said
I've been saying that our actions and inactions have consequences; poor decisions
can lead to more than a few health issues in generations to come. Decay leads to
all kinds of breakdowns, and we are in a universe that is leaning that way instead
of life; it leads to death. We are in a cursed world because we chose badly.

We are cut off from the source of life, who is G ...[text shortened]... t for a time, but since it is cut off from
the tree, its end is sure, and so are we apart from God.

You are either saying your God figure DID create brain tumours in babies or he didn't. You say he did. So, if he did, and it is a "consequence" of people "choosing not to walk with" your God figure - as you clearly stated on page 14 - then it is a punishment, pure and simple. Then, you must decide if administering that punishment is a good or evil act. You choose to characterize the punishment - the brain tumours in babies, in this case - as good. You have been very explicit about it.

@kellyjay said
We are in a cursed world because we chose badly.

So the world has been "cursed" by your God figure because "we chose badly"? That is "divine" punishment whichever way you parse it.

@kellyjay said
I've been saying that our actions and inactions have consequences; poor decisions
can lead to more than a few health issues in generations to come. Decay leads to
all kinds of breakdowns, and we are in a universe that is leaning that way instead
of life; it leads to death. We are in a cursed world because we chose badly.

We are cut off from the source of life, who is G ...[text shortened]... t for a time, but since it is cut off from
the tree, its end is sure, and so are we apart from God.

Your ability to waffle around the specific issue you are being asked about, and actually to the point where you completely avoid answering it, is quite impressive in its own way.

@fmf said
You are either saying your God figure DID create brain tumours in babies or he didn't. You say he did. So, if he did, and it is a "consequence" of people "choosing not to walk with" your God figure - as you clearly stated on page 14 - then it is a punishment, pure and simple. Then, you must decide if administering that punishment is a good or evil act. You choose to characterize ...[text shortened]... ishment - the brain tumours in babies, in this case - as good. You have been very explicit about it.

You are calling a brain tumor bad and evil, and I agree, but without God, why would
that be true? Biologically speaking, without God, it is just biology; nothing more
than evolution; it is just a part of the natural processes. Why get upset at what you
call natural processes at work? At least be consistent in your stance; why be
bothered by nature in an undirected mutation that kills off one of us?

For anything to be a punishment, it has to be directed at someone for cause, and
as I pointed out, we get a mix of good and bad things in this life. I'm not calling
sickness, disease, or even accidents on their face punishments; good and bad
things happen in this life and are common to man. If the thing that caused
the tumor wasn't specifically sent to the child as means to punish them or their
parents, you should at least come up with a cause and declare how you know it
happened! If it is just a hypothetical story, the why of the story comes from us,
like the charge; it is just a reason to hate God out of our imaginations.

Life is the goal of God; it is to be enjoyed, it is the be lived without fear and all
those things that bring about fear and death are not things we should be going
through but due to our break with our maker, our sustainer in life we are.

The fallout of sin has turned into what is supposed to be less than what should be
isn't, and we see that as things happen to us. Now we are living lives filled with not
just love, but mixed in life is hate, loathing, fear, selfishness, and the result of that
is death at the end of this life.

It is God who gives me hope as He entered into this life and took on all that
keeps us from Him so we can be saved and redeemed, giving us a life that can
occur even amid all the bad and evil that goes on; peace, not as the world can
give us peace from an eternal source that will see us through it all.

@kellyjay said
You are calling a brain tumor bad and evil, and I agree, but without God, why would
that be true?

Your question smacks of sophistry. Here is a less disingenuous one: why does your God figure make you think the babies' brain tumours are "good"?

@kellyjay said
Biologically speaking, without God, it is just biology; nothing more
than evolution; it is just a part of the natural processes. Why get upset at what you
call natural processes at work?

Yes, I believe that brain tumours are "just biology" and part of a "natural process". I am not "upset", KellyJay. The bone of contention is that YOU believe your God figure created brain tumours in babies and YOU believe everything your God figure does is good.