@sonship saidMore deceit from your doctrine. That statement from Christ is also in Matt 10 and Jesus is clear that God DESTROYS both BODY AND SOUL in hell
@Ghost-of-a-DukeIn this context, how is perishing akin to eternal punishment? And why is it terrible to face eternity without Jesus if one has indeed perished?
John 3:16 is a context. But it is not the only context.
One might conclude"would not perish" to mean physical death if one insisted John 3:16 was the ONLY context for r ...[text shortened]... ] Christ uses to get the point across.
This is a positive teaching from Jesus on fearing God.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28 KJV)
You rather not use that passage because Jesus's use of the word destroy, destroys your false doctrine of eternal torment.
You can't punish a dead person who has no awareness of eternity, as a result of having perished.
The rich man in Christ's teaching Luke 16:19-21 was aware of being punished after he died.
" . . the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham from afar and Lazarus in his bosom." (Luke 16:23)
Strictly speaking it doesn't say how long he was in that state. And I do not want to be so curious to follow his example to find out.
Either way, he was conscious of being in torment. Yet not so much that he could not carry on a sad conversation.
"Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this flame." (v.24)
I don't know about the science of water or flame in that realm.
But if there is not something serious to consider then Jesus Christ would be unrighteous to give us the impression there is something to fear.
Since the morality of Jesus Christ is to me above questioning, I take the simple teaching at face value for its warning nature.
Rajk999 is a peculiar objector. On one hand when he is angry with me he brandishes that I will suffer eternal perdition. But when he wants to show me teaching perdition wrongly he softens it and says I am in error. Then it is not eternal perdition but annihilation.
Why not be consistent Rajk999. When you want to condemn me as a false teaching just say I will be annihilated into non-existence forever.
Matthew 10:28 does nothing to soften the parallel passage in Luke 12:5 .
Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."
Man is limited in what he can inflict.
God can go beyond what man can inflict.
Do not fear the limited infliction of destruction man can inflict.
Rather fear the One who can go beyond and man can do to hurt your wellbeing.
". . . rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."
The ability God surpasses the ability of man.
If the ability of man and the ability of God are exactly the same then there is no reason for Jesus to teach GREATER fear should be rendered towards God.
If man can toss your corpse into the city dump after killing you AND God can do the SAME thing then there is no reason to reserve greater fear for God. For both can kill the body and dump it into the valley of Hinnon, the city dump.
Again, for something none of us have experiential known this side of the grave the symbol of Gehenna is used to convey His meaning. What God can inflict is not the SAME as what man can inflict. Rather what God can inflict on body and soul surpasses man's ability. So God should be rendered greater fear.
@sonship saidIm an very consistent. Your reading skills is messed up. Eternal perdion, damnation, punishment or whatever, is not eternal torment. It means destruction, or annihilation. It is not eternal torment. No human is tormented for eternity. Eternal Torment is reserved for the Beast, Satan and the False Prophet.
Rajk999 is a peculiar objector. On one hand when he is angry with me he brandishes that I will suffer eternal perdition. But when he wants to show me teaching perdition wrongly he softens it and says I am in error. Then it is not eternal perdition but annihilations.
Why not be consistent Rajk999. When you want to condemn me as a false teaching just say I will be annihilated into non-existence forever.
@sonship saidHow can you ever conclude that in the Matt passage, both God and man are doing the same thing.
The ability God surpasses the ability of man.
If the ability of man and the ability of God are exactly the same then there is no reason for Jesus to teach GREATER fear should be rendered towards God.
If man can toss your corpse into the city dump after killing you AND God can do the SAME thing then there is no reason to reserve greater fear for God. For both ...[text shortened]... at God can inflict on body and soul surpasses man's ability. So God should be rendered greater fear.
Christ says man can kill the body only
God can kill both body and soul
How is that equal. Are you right in your head?
@rajk999 saidIf you know a place is described as terrible to the Devil and his angels, and the antichrist and his false prophet, and to the followers of antichrist, and to the goats who persecuted the suffering brothers of Jesus (Matt. 25), then the smart thing to do is AVOID the place.
Im an very consistent. Your reading skills is messed up. Eternal perdion, damnation, punishment or whatever, is not eternal torment. It means destruction, or annihilation. It is not eternal torment. No human is tormented for eternity. Eternal Torment is reserved for the Beast, Satan and the False Prophet.
If you have been explicitly told how a certain criminal had misery in a certain famous prison, the wisest thing to do is be sure you do not go to that same place.
No one should be so curious as to reason "Well, I heard that place was bad for so-and-so. I am curious to go there and see if the result for me will be the same or different."
The wise thing to do is to make sure you avoid the same place.
Rev. 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Rev. 20:15 "And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire."
You know the place is bad. Avoid the place altogether.
Have the Lord Jesus write your name in the Lamb's book of life.
I am now understating things. If I were to be perfectly frank I would say, You'd be a damned fool [sic] to take comfort in Rajk999's explanation.
@sonship saidWho says ... .."Well, I heard that place was bad for so-and-so. I am curious to go there and see if the result for me will be the same or different."
If you know a place is described as terrible to the Devil and his angels, and the antichrist and his false prophet, and to the followers of antichrist, and to the goats who persecuted the suffering brothers of Jesus (Matt. 25), then the smart thing to do is AVOID the place.
If you have been explicitly told how a certain criminal had misery in a certain famous prison, th ...[text shortened]... for so-and-so. I am curious to go there and see if the result for me will be the same or different."
Why are you creating ridiculous hypothetical situations to make a meaningless point ?
You are making yourself look even more stupid.
How can you ever conclude that in the Matt passage, both God and man are doing the same thing.
I said "IF" . . . it were the same.
IF God and man were doing exactly the same thing to somebody there would be no point in the teaching to more fear God.
"Do not fear . . . "
"But RATHER fear . . . "
The implication is obvious. God in both Matthew 10 and Luke 12 God can go beyond what man is able to do when it comes to inflicting harm.
@sonship saidPeople will do well to understand what Jesus Christ said. Not yours and not mine.
The wise thing to do is to make sure you avoid the same place.
Rev. 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Rev. 20:15 [b]"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cas ...[text shortened]... perfectly frank I would say, You'd be a damned fool [sic] to take comfort in Rajk999's explanation.
Your name is not written in the book of life unless Jesus is pleased with your works. WORKS. Read Rec 2 and 3 about the letters to the churches. THEY ALL PROFESSED FAITH. Not all names were in the book of life
You preach false doctrines. You preach faith only. Jesus preached WORKS.
@sonship saidIf the threat is not credible, and it doesn't have any coercive effect, and does not have any deterrent effect, then it it wouldn't be morally coherent to carry out the threat. All it is is a bit of morally farfetched and demented violence that just so happens to appeal to the imaginations of people like you. You have not one shred of credible evidence that any such torturing goes on. Your certainty and convoluted justifications are not evidence of anything. It all sounds so obviously parochial and not even fully thought out.
The teaching I just showed you shows Jesus had in mind the need to be in dread of God's authority to punish beyond physical death.