Belief vs. faith

Originally posted by Suzianne
Describing faith for those that do not believe in God is rather like describing an Arizona sunset to a blind person.

Oh, I don't know.

You would think it is the atheist that has the greater faith since they believe in nothing.

That is truly blind faith.

13 May '11 12:40
Originally posted by Doward
Belief is not the same as faith, at least that's how I see it. Many people believe in this or that, yet they lack the will, desire or faith to act upon those beliefs. To get specific I largely mean Christians. Many here profess belief, but do they follow Christ? And I don't mean there very narrow view, but truly follow Christ? Are they people of faith. When C ...[text shortened]... n awesome power in acting on faith, yet people seldom seem inclined to do so.

thoughts?
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Hebrews 11:6a - But without faith it is impossible to please him:

Faith always has an object. How can faith be blind if it has an object? Faith is a little understood concept, and sadly, little used.


Colossians 2:6 - As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

How do we receive Christ? By faith. So is the walk. It is not blind!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
because that is what faith is based upon, its not blind as has been erroneously
assumed, its based upon reason, an evident demonstration of reality, although not
yet beheld.

(Hebrews 11:1) . . .Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, [b]the
evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. . .

Thus as the Bible writ ...[text shortened]... n certain evidences, which
demonstrate a reality, although at present, are not fully manifest.[/b]

I get that, but crying for proof so you can justify your ability to have faith is
really saying you don't want to have faith.
Kelly

Originally posted by Agerg
As for my take on belief vs faith, there are things I believe to be true which I don't actually `know' to be factual - but I could go away and check if suspicion got the better of me. Faith on the other hand seems a bit like saying 171,727,482,883 is prime[hidden]it isn\'t! change the last digit to a 1[/hidden]for no reason other than...well...it looks prime doesn't it!?

I'm not sure I'd call that faith saying that number is prime, it could be a
mistaken belief or not, but what are you walking out on with that belief? Now
you may believe all life came from nothing in the beginning, and you live your
life beholding to no creator, that would be walking out your life according to
faith, or you could believe there was one and walk out your life according to
that belief as well.
Kelly

belief is it not the practice of your faith. . i know that the sacriment is holy but if it gets dropped after being blessed throw it away.. it does not turn into the body of christ, it represents the body, similar to the wine. thats my belief . my faith teachs me to learn for myself rather than be doctrined . if im on the wrong lines to this post sorry..

Originally posted by Doward
Belief is not the same as faith, at least that's how I see it. Many people believe in this or that, yet they lack the will, desire or faith to act upon those beliefs. To get specific I largely mean Christians. Many here profess belief, but do they follow Christ? And I don't mean there very narrow view, but truly follow Christ? Are they people of faith. When C ...[text shortened]... n awesome power in acting on faith, yet people seldom seem inclined to do so.

thoughts?

Those words always seemed a little interchangeable to me, this discussion has
cleared that up for me at least. Well done on the topic, thanks.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I get that, but crying for proof so you can justify your ability to have faith is
really saying you don't want to have faith.
Kelly

how so?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm not sure I'd call that faith saying that number is prime, it could be a
mistaken belief or not, but what are you walking out on with that belief? Now
you may believe all life came from nothing in the beginning, and you live your
life beholding to no creator, that would be walking out your life according to
faith, or you could believe there was one and walk out your life according to
that belief as well.
Kelly

If it is a mistaken belief, then you have sufficient false data or knowledge to convince you it is prime.Reveal Hidden ContentThat's pretty much the kernel of a mistake: X, Y, Z all imply W so you conclude W. But unknown to you at the time of holding some belief, one of X, Y, Z is wrong.
Faith on the otherhand is having insufficient data or knowledge and believing something anyway.

Just noticed your sneaky association of, "faith" with holding that 'all life came from nothing',Reveal Hidden Contentand the association of "belief" with your position...you sly old fox you! ;]

Originally posted by josephw
Oh, I don't know.

You would think it is the atheist that has the greater faith since they believe in nothing.

That is truly blind faith.

I believe in many things, just not fairies, ghosts, vampires, demons, gods .... and so on.

Originally posted by Agerg
If it is a mistaken belief, then you have sufficient false data or knowledge to convince you it is prime.[hidden]Where I mean suffiency of data or knowledge in the sense that it is enough so to compel a person to conclude, validly, something which is false- not that the knowledge itself is valid[/hidden]That's pretty much the kernel of a mistake: X, Y, Z all i ...[text shortened]... den]and the association of [b]"belief" with your position...you sly old fox you! ;][/b]

It is the same in my opinion, not trying to slip anything past you.
Between the two beliefs both cause people to view everything a certain way,
both cause people to behave or walk out their faith as well. Being mistaken
about some of our beliefs doesn't change that we act upon our beliefs at time
right or wrong, as in walking out our faith.
Kelly

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
how so?

If faith is walking out your beliefs, having proof doesn't require faith, that is
not the samething as having evidence since we can wrap our beliefs about
evidence and be wrong about what we think is true.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
It is the same in my opinion, not trying to slip anything past you.
Between the two beliefs both cause people to view everything a certain way,
both cause people to behave or walk out their faith as well. Being mistaken
about some of our beliefs doesn't change that we act upon our beliefs at time
right or wrong, as in walking out our faith.
Kelly

My argument is that "faith" is a special case of belief, they are not identical in meaning.

Returning to my prime number example if you merely looked at 171,727,482,883 and convinced yourself it was prime purely on the strength that your gut feeling compels you towards that position then such a belief is faith.

On the other hand, consider the following:

13 is prime
23 is prime
33 is not prime
43 is prime
53 is prime
63 is not prime
73 is prime
83 is prime
93 is not prime
103 is prime
113 is prime
123 is not prime
'
'
'
and so on

It looks like there is a pattern, indeed if any integer X with more than one digit ending in a 3 is such that X-3 is not divisible by 3 then one might assert X is almost surely prime. Now presenting a few cases to prove a general rule would be a fallacious argument to me,Reveal Hidden Contentbut to the layperson it could easily be compelling enough that they have valid reason to believe 171,727,482,883 is prime simply by checking 171,727,482,880 is not divisible by 3.

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That's the difference between faith and belief. With faith you have insufficient support for a position that you hold is true. With belief do you have sufficient support for it (it may be erroneous support - but still enough)

Originally posted by Agerg
My argument is that "faith" is a special case of belief, they are not identical in meaning.

Returning to my prime number example if you merely looked at 171,727,482,883 and convinced yourself it was prime purely on the strength that your gut feeling compels you towards that position then such a belief is faith.

On the other hand, consider the following: ...[text shortened]... ief do you have sufficient support for it (it may be erroneous support - but still enough)

Sounds also like the difference between hypothesis and theory.

Originally posted by Doward
faith in itself is blind. It is the knowing in your "heart" against any evidence.

As I've said before on here, we need to strike a balance. Between left and right brain, between faith and reason, intuition and logic, etc.
However you go about integrating these polar opposites is up to the individual, but, imo, it is a necessary step to "move forward" with our spiritual understanding(s).

Originally posted by josephw
Hebrews 11:6a - But without faith it is impossible to please him:

Faith always has an object. How can faith be blind if it has an object? Faith is a little understood concept, and sadly, little used.


Colossians 2:6 - As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

How do we receive Christ? By faith. So is the walk. It is not blind!

While I do not necessarily disagree with your post I would just like to say that it is hard to measure how "little used" faith is, as faith is an internal "action" which is not always evident to others.
(Although there are instances where an act can be traced back to one's faith)



I do find your posts negative, (unless you are rubbing up with other christians or christian ideals). A psycologist may even say that your need to attack athiests for their lack of belief (or whatever), is a defence mechanism against their often rational, well thought out arguements.