1. Joined
    12 Jul '08
    Moves
    12091
    17 Dec '16 03:36
    The book of James is famous for lines like faith without works is dead.
    As I read James I came across 2:26

    As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

    Life reqires both, so it is not a question of one or the other but the need for both.

    Now for Romans 4.

    Here we find Paul telling us that Abraham was juatified by faith. First comes faith then comes action. So it is with us under the New Covenant.

    Romans 2 deals with carrying out the Mosaic Law which Paul tells us is the Old Covenant. In other words it doesn't apply to those under New Covenant. The New Covenant is defined by the statement that God so loved the world that He gave his Son so that those who believe in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
  2. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    17 Dec '16 13:18
    Originally posted by Eladar
    The book of James is famous for lines like faith without works is dead.
    As I read James I came across 2:26

    As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

    Life reqires both, so it is not a question of one or the other but the need for both.

    Now for Romans 4.

    Here we find Paul telling us that Abraham was juatified by fait ...[text shortened]... rld that He gave his Son so that those who believe in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
    Maybe you should read the whole of James, instead of just a couple verses. James also says:

    Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    Here he clearly states that faith alone means no works. But works alone implies faith.

    If you dare to read more you will also notice that James says that Abraham was justified by works as was Rehab.

    Try not to twist the Bible.

    As for your comment on Romans 2 its way off the mark.
  3. Joined
    12 Jul '08
    Moves
    12091
    17 Dec '16 14:23
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Maybe you should read the whole of James, instead of just a couple verses. James also says:

    Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    Here he clearly states that faith alone means no works. But works alone implies faith.

    If you dare to read ...[text shortened]... Rehab.

    Try not to twist the Bible.

    As for your comment on Romans 2 its way off the mark.
    How can you show faith if you have no faith to show? If your good works are based on the Mosaic Law written on your heart then you are simply following the Law.

    Romans 4:4-5

    Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.


    Romans 4:22-24

    This is why "it is credited to him as righteousness." The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness-for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
  4. Joined
    12 Jul '08
    Moves
    12091
    17 Dec '16 17:40
    Perhaps you can provide the Bible quote where it is written that you can be saved by works alone.

    Obviously James says both works and faith. I am looking for works without faith.

    I have provided a Biblical quote for salvation by faith without works.
  5. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    17 Dec '16 18:11
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Perhaps you can provide the Bible quote where it is written that you can be saved by works alone.

    Obviously James says both works and faith. I am looking for works without faith.

    I have provided a Biblical quote for salvation by faith without works.
    Your quote for salvation without works is a misunderstanding of the teachings of the Apostles since that is not the entire story. Read what Paul said:

    I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. (1 Corinthians 9:26-27 KJV)

    That is not an isolated passage as there are more likt it. How does that fit into your salvation by faith only doctrine? Is there another more faithful than Paul? Yet Paul himself knew that if he was not careful to control his fleshly desires he himself would be a castaway. Something is clearly incomplete about that doctrine.

    However, I accept that there are some who will enter the Kingdom of God on the basis of faith alone, but these are exceptions and not as a rule. As I have repeated said that there is a whole range of combinations of faith and works which are acceptable to God. I have discussed Romans 2 already but you have your own interpretation. I wont be going there again.
  6. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    17 Dec '16 18:13
    Originally posted by Eladar
    How can you show faith if you have no faith to show? If your good works are based on the Mosaic Law written on your heart then you are simply following the Law.

    Romans 4:4-5

    Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is ...[text shortened]... God will credit righteousness-for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.
    James explains that good works shows faith. If you do not accept that then so be it.

    Here it is a second time:

    Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (James 2:18 KJV)
  7. SubscriberGhost of a Duke
    A Spirited Misfit
    in London
    Joined
    14 Mar '15
    Moves
    8514
    17 Dec '16 18:26
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    James explains that good works shows faith. If you do not accept that then so be it.

    Here it is a second time:

    Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (James 2:18 KJV)
    Can an atheist be saved, if he does good works but has no faith?


    Not asked you in a while...
  8. Joined
    12 Jul '08
    Moves
    12091
    17 Dec '16 18:28
    So no Biblical support for works without faith leading to salvation?

    As for Romans 2 does Paul not strictly speak of the Law? Does Paul not reject the idea of the Law leading to salvation? One does not put new wine into old wine skins. It was the Judaizers who taught that the new covenant should retain the law. Paul wrote that this is incorrect.
  9. Joined
    12 Jul '08
    Moves
    12091
    17 Dec '16 18:52
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    James explains that good works shows faith. If you do not accept that then so be it.

    Here it is a second time:

    Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (James 2:18 KJV)
    So you assume James believes that he does not have faith.
  10. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    17 Dec '16 19:001 edit
    Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
    Can an atheist be saved, if he does good works but has no faith?


    Not asked you in a while...
    God decides that. We can only speculate using the Bible as a guide.

    Have you read and understood 1 Cor 13? The greatest thing is charity / brotherly love. It is greater than faith. Faith will one day be useless but charity / love remains.

    I would say that a Christian who professes faith but does evil works is in a worse position than an atheist who does good works.
  11. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    17 Dec '16 19:03
    Originally posted by Eladar
    So no Biblical support for works without faith leading to salvation?

    As for Romans 2 does Paul not strictly speak of the Law? Does Paul not reject the idea of the Law leading to salvation? One does not put new wine into old wine skins. It was the Judaizers who taught that the new covenant should retain the law. Paul wrote that this is incorrect.
    What utter nonsense.
  12. Joined
    12 Jul '08
    Moves
    12091
    17 Dec '16 19:251 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    What utter nonsense.
    Try reading Romans 3

    I'll quote 22-24

    This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
  13. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    17 Dec '16 19:41
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Try reading Romans 3

    I'll quote 22-24

    This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
    There are two kinds of people. Those who know of a God and those who dont. Romans 3 speaks of those who know of a God and who believes.

    Romans 2 deals with those who know no God and no law.

    One has nothing to do with the other.
  14. Joined
    12 Jul '08
    Moves
    12091
    17 Dec '16 19:57
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    There are two kinds of people. Those who know of a God and those who dont. Romans 3 speaks of those who know of a God and who believes.

    Romans 2 deals with those who know no God and no law.

    One has nothing to do with the other.
    Romans 2 has to do with Gentiles having the Mosaic Law written on their hearts.

    Following the Mosaic Law for salvation was the covenant before Christ.

    Yes, there is no difference between those who know of God's law directly from the Bible and those who have it written on their hearts. Anyone relying on it for salvation falls short. All are doomed to the fires of hell.

    Where does it say that Romans three only speaks to those who who believe? Paul wrote that all people fall short not just those who know of God. Is there some other text that tells you this or am I missing some part of the Bible that says this?
  15. Standard memberRajk999
    Enjoying
    On the Beach
    Joined
    04 Apr '04
    Moves
    170571
    17 Dec '16 20:131 edit
    Originally posted by Eladar
    Romans 2 has to do with Gentiles having the Mosaic Law written on their hearts.

    Following the Mosaic Law for salvation was the covenant before Christ.

    Yes, there is no difference between those who know of God's law directly from the Bible and those who have it written on their hearts. Anyone relying on it for salvation falls short. All are doomed to the ...[text shortened]... there some other text that tells you this or am I missing some part of the Bible that says this?
    What does Paul say in Romans 2 about people who have the law written in their hearts?

    Did he say that they are doomed to the fires of hell?

    You are very quick to judge and condemn people that God may just welcome into His Kingdom. What did Christ say about those who like to condemn the innocent?
Back to Top