Blind Faith

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
"not enough time on what actually matters."
meaning not enough time on what you think actually matters.
i have no trouble believing in god and jesus while still trying to live a logical existence. if tomorrow someone presents undisputable proof that jesus was a woman, i will have no trouble adjusting my views.

"It is like you wear the clothes of a Chr ...[text shortened]... olling them? they have faith in that, greater than a mustard seed. does that count as knowledge?

I'm not getting a clear understanding from you as to what you believe faith is Zahlazi.

Unless I missed it I didn't see a reply from you to my OP.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi

back to job, god eventually rewarded job for his trouble. job is no longer the one having blind faith, he is the genius who got rewarded for his devotion.

Job is still a character that first had blind faith, and was later rewarded for it. That is my point: that the bible shows blind faith to be a virtue.

Originally posted by JS357
I wanted apples and got oranges.

How should I know?

I don't expect you to be too personal, but could you be a little less metaphorical?

There are two expressions of faith that I see in scripture. One is ours, and the other is God's. It depends on the context and purpose of the faith in question that defines its expression.

For example: Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Most translation render "I live by the faith of the son of God" as "I live by faith in the son of God".

If you care to look at the literal translation the correct reading is "the faith of the son".

That's the kind of faith I'm talking about. Not my faith, but God's faith.

Ephesians 4 tells us that saving faith is the gift of God. We receive and employ that faith as our own in the life we now live, which is " by the faith of the son of God".

Real, substantive, powerful and living faith.

Originally posted by vivify
Job is still a character that first had blind faith, and was later rewarded for it. That is my point: that the bible shows blind faith to be a virtue.

How could Jobs faith have been blind when he already knew and trusted God with unfailing faith?

Job1:21
And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

That doesn't sound like blind faith to me. Job said that even after he lost his family.

No such thing as blind faith. That idea cannot be supported by scripture.

Originally posted by josephw
How should I know?

I don't expect you to be too personal, but could you be a little less metaphorical?

There are two expressions of faith that I see in scripture. One is ours, and the other is God's. It depends on the context and purpose of the faith in question that defines its expression.

For example: Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: never ...[text shortened]... ve, which is " by the faith of the son of God".

Real, substantive, powerful and living faith.

I'm being metaphorical?

I was responding in the spirit of your preceding reply to me, "Not sure what you mean by that, but if you're suggesting that you once had faith that produced no fruit, then what you had wasn't faith."

Obviously, what I had was oranges (untrue faith) instead of apples (true faith). According to you.

I needn't make such personal statements, you are making them for and about me. This is not to say I object, I just acknowledge that you are doing so. After all, I can't object, I just made one about you. But it does mean there is little to be gained by making personal statements.

Originally posted by josephw
How could Jobs faith have been blind when he already knew and trusted God with unfailing faith?

Job1:21
And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

That doesn't sound like blind faith to me. Job said that even after he lost his family.

No such thing as blind faith. That idea cannot be supported by scripture.

Given that there was no reason for such calamity to fall on Job (on account of how dedicated Job already was toward God), Job's faith in God was blind since he had no assurance that God would do anything to save Job from his suffering.

Put it this way: imagine a child's father lets him get beat up by other children, stops providing food, and lets him get sick without providing the child with any medical care. In addition, that child has also witnessed his father allow his family members to die. Now imagine that on top of that, the father has deliberately made himself unavailable, leaving the child without a clue as to what to do, or why all this is happening.

This child would have every reason to believe that the father has abandoned him, right? And since this child has no evidence to the contrary, having "faith" that the father still cares for him would be blind faith, since the child has absolutely no reason to believe this.

Job's situation was similar. After watching his loved ones suddenly, his riches disappear, and physical condition become dire, he had every reason to believe that God abandoned him and no longer cared for him. With no evidence to the contrary in sight, any continued faith in God would be blind faith.

It would be different if God at least spoke to Job and said "hey, I know things look bad, but trust me, I'll get you out of this". Then Job would've at least had the fact that God made an effort to give Job a promise. But Job had nothing; nothing but blind faith.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
moses didn't have faith. moses had knowledge. god was speaking TO him, he allowed him to terrorize the people of egypt with bio and chemical weapons.

the character moses KNEW god existed.


we don't know. we have no way of knowing if moses existed, if he did that horrible crap in egypt, if he did wonder the desert for 40 years. we have no proof. som ...[text shortened]... iscovered for certain yet. until such proof is found, the existence of god is a matter of faith.

Amazing Evidence of Moses and the Split Rock

YouTube

Originally posted by josephw
I'm not getting a clear understanding from you as to what you believe faith is Zahlazi.

Unless I missed it I didn't see a reply from you to my OP.

my stance is, surprisingly, that words mean what the dictionary says they do.

Originally posted by vivify
Job is still a character that first had blind faith, and was later rewarded for it. That is my point: that the bible shows blind faith to be a virtue.

you still want to argue based on faith as trust in someone. i agree with you on that, but this is not what this thread is about.


they want to argue that their faith is somehow synonymous with knowledge. they are arguing on the second meaning of faith.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Amazing Evidence of Moses and the Split Rock

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzRvBb68Ees

no

Originally posted by JS357
I'm being metaphorical?

I was responding in the spirit of your preceding reply to me, "Not sure what you mean by that, but if you're suggesting that you once had faith that produced no [b]fruit, then what you had wasn't faith."

Obviously, what I had was oranges (untrue faith) instead of apples (true faith). According to you.

I needn't make such pe ...[text shortened]... made one about you. But it does mean there is little to be gained by making personal statements.[/b]

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." (Hebrews 11:1)

So "...faith is... the evidence..." Faith is holding something to be true without proof."

The quote above is from your post on page 1. You're making a contradiction. The verse says "faith is...the evidence of things not seen." For some reason you see that as saying there's no proof for the existence of the object of faith, when in fact the verse is saying the opposite.

Faith is the evidence, or proof, that something is true, and in this case the object of faith is God.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
my stance is, surprisingly, that words mean what the dictionary says they do.

Well, God didn't write the dictionary.

Faith is what God defines it as! 😉

Originally posted by josephw
Well, God didn't write the dictionary.

Faith is what God defines it as! 😉

you define a concept. you assign a string of letters to it, a word. from then, that word is that concept.


your concept is not faith, faith is already taken and it means belief without proof.
your concept is not even a concept, it is an oxymoron. there is no knowledge without proof

Originally posted by josephw

There are two expressions of faith that I see in scripture. One is ours, and the other is God's. It depends on the context and purpose of the faith in question that defines its expression.

For example: Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Most translation render "I live by the faith of the son of God" as "I live by faith in the son of God".

If you care to look at the literal translation the correct reading is "the faith of the son".

That's the kind of faith I'm talking about. Not my faith, but God's faith.

Ephesians 4 tells us that saving faith is the gift of God. We receive and employ that faith as our own in the life we now live, which is " by the faith of the son of God".

I say this is very good.

Faith seems to leave man nothing to boast in.
Faith in Christ leaves the believing one nothing in which to boast before man.

Is the biblical faith a blind faith?

We can argue about whether faith is blind or is not blind.
My faith has never been completely "blind".

It sometimes has been like a pilot flying an airplane through thick clouds. The physical visibility is reduced. But there is a radar on board permitting the pilot to navigate through low or zero physical visibility.

As Christians, God does lead us eventually to "fly through clouds". But internally, deep in our spirit there is something like radar and we can say as it was said about Moses -

"By faith he [Moses] left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king, for he persevered as SEEING the UNSEEN One." (Heb 11:27)

There is a perceiving God's reality IN SPITE of much contrary circumstances. This is the deepest seeing rather than blindness. This is a seeing which is more real than that of the physical senses.