Originally posted by RBHILLOMG.
You can't pray straight to God.
Jesus is the in between man.
You are so Biblically illiterate, I can't even begin to fathom it!
Let's review:
Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread; and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors;
and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one.
To whom is this prayer made? To the Father, to God in heaven.
Jesus does not enter this picture -- this fundamental prayer of ALL Christians, liberal
and fundamentalist.
Your assertion is absolutely false.
Nemesio
Originally posted by blindfaith101I've read everything you suggested. How, if Jesus and the Father are one can
You skipped over JOHN 10:25-30 were JESUS said that HE and the Father were one. Read also JOHN 17:11-26, HE futher discuses the question.
the Father be greater than the Son?
How do you explain that (in your own words, with Biblical citations only)?
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioThere is no limit to the power of GOD. Just a limit to the understanding of an unbeliever. If GOD created this world by just speaking HIS WORD. And it came into being. There would nothing for HIM to divde himself into THE FATHER, THE SON, THE HOLY SPIRIT, and still remain complete within and without HIMSELF.
I've read everything you suggested. How, if Jesus and the Father are one can
the Father be greater than the Son?
How do you explain that (in your own words, with Biblical citations only)?
Nemesio
Smeone posted that this whole problem began with the understanding of the Catholic Church. It may have. When unbelievers were allowed into the Faith as they are now. They began to add to THE WORD OF GOD. The enemies of GOD began to try to take away the Power that GOD has and will always have.
The answer that was asked for originally was to use THE WORD OF GOD, for a soul to be saved. Therefore the answer should come from THE WORD OF GOD.
Originally posted by blindfaith101Do you ever answer a question or is that against the WORD OF GOD?
There is no limit to the power of GOD. Just a limit to the understanding of an unbeliever. If GOD created this world by just speaking HIS WORD. And it came into being. There would nothing for HIM to divde himself into THE FATHER, THE SON, THE HOLY SPIRIT, and still remain complete within and without HIMSELF.
Smeone posted that this whole problem bega ...[text shortened]... THE WORD OF GOD, for a soul to be saved. Therefore the answer should come from THE WORD OF GOD.
Originally posted by KnightWulfeI am thinking for myself. I do you use Caps and will to continue to do so. The only sad thing is, that you unbelievers cannot understand something so simple.
I have yet to see him answer anything without the interjection of ALL CAPS and the WORD OF GOD. I really don't think he is able to think for himself. Kind of sad, really.
Originally posted by blindfaith101BF - It is your simple answer to something that cannot HAVE a simple answer. I am truly sorry that you have to rely upon a simple answer to why and how things exist. The complexity of what shapes every molecule and atom of life is not something founded in faith. Faith is a fallback for those who dont want to have to think further. There are a very few select theists (LH, for example) that are able to back up their points with intelligent rebuke. You BF, only ever froth at the mouth spewing the same old crap over and over and over again. There is nothing more to your answers than Jesus Christ this and The Word of God that and the Bible this, but even in using those, you never have any substance to what you say - it is all hollow banter.
I am thinking for myself. I do you use Caps and will to continue to do so. The only sad thing is, that you unbelievers cannot understand something so simple.
Originally posted by blindfaith101BF, you talk about "GOD" so how do you define the "GOD" that you talk about. Please be as specific as possible eg. all powerful...etc. because different people have different perceptions of what "GOD" is, and different Christian organisations throughout history and also in our modern times define "HIM" differently. I was just wondering how you personally define "HIM."
[b]I am thinking for myself.
Originally posted by Nemesio
I've read everything you suggested. How, if Jesus and the Father are one can
the Father be greater than the Son?
How do you explain that (in your own words, with Biblical citations only)?
Nemesio
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.'
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' John 1
This clearly declares the divinity of Jesus. Here are some more subtle claims:
58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8
(which is a clear allusion to🙂
13 Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?"
14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' " Exodus 3
More examples:
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." John 20
(Jesus did not tell Thomas "No! No, Thomas! Never call me that again, I am not God!" which is what He should and would have said if He were not, as accepting worship meant for God was certainly blasphemy.)
Now that it is clear that the Bible portrays and Jesus believed Himself to be God, let us tackle your question.
My understanding of the Trinity is that there are three Persons in one Essence.
Furthermore, I believe Jesus to be the embodiment of God's wisdom. In ancient Jewish literature, they thought words could do things. They sort of gave them personhood. For example:
20 He sent forth his word and healed them;
he rescued them from the grave. Psalm 107
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made,
their starry host by the breath of his mouth. Psalm 33
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. Isaiah 55
This is why the Lord is called the "Word" of God. He is the embodiment of God's wisdom. Here's some more evidence of abstract attributes being personified (in this instance, God's wisdom):
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence, Proverbs 8
Compare that to:
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Colossians 1
and:
5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 17
So, just like our words are a part of us (have our authority), they are also lesser than us. Christ, while being God in essence, is lesser than God the Father in roles (not power).
Think of Jesus as a Person who embodies the eternal effect of the cause that is God's wisdom. Without the Father, Jesus could not exist, hence verses like:
7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, "You are my Son ;
today I have become your Father. Psalms 2
The Holy Spirit is the Person who embodies the eternal effect of the cause that is God the Father and God the Son's creative power and presence. Without the Father and Son, the Holy Spirit would not exist, hence verses like:
7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
12 "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. John 16
Why do I believe the Holy Spirit is the Person who embodies the Father and Son's creative power and presence? Because of verses like:
2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. Genesis 1
and
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14
Hope that helps.
Originally posted by DarfiusHow do these verses fit in?
Originally posted by Nemesio
[b]I've read everything you suggested. How, if Jesus and the Father are one can
the Father be greater than the Son?
How do you explain that (in your own words, with Biblical citations only)?
Nemesio
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the b ...[text shortened]... all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14
Hope that helps.[/b]
1 Cor 15:27-28
27For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
(NKJ)
Originally posted by checkbaiterSimply underlines the fact that the Son has chosen to have a lesser role within the Godhood. He (like Isaac under Abraham) is perfectly obedient to the will of His Father.
How do these verses fit in?
1 Cor 15:27-28
27For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," [b]it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
28Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
(NKJ)[/b]
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness. Philippians 2
Also written by Paul. Paul clearly states that Christ gave up His equal role with the Father when He took on human nature. Does this mean Christ is no longer God? No. It means that the Person of Christ has both His divine nature and now a human nature, making Him less than the Person of the Father in role (but not position--for the divine cannot become less divine--or essence).
Originally posted by KnightWulfeThe WORD OF GOD, answers all questions. You chose that old tactic that satan used in the Garden of Eden, distraction from what GOD said. I chose to believe only what the WORD OF GOD says, I have found no lies in it. you and others have chosen to believe others, that is your choice.
BF - It is your simple answer to something that cannot HAVE a simple answer. I am truly sorry that you have to rely upon a simple answer to why and how things exist. The complexity of what shapes every molecule and atom of life is not something founded in faith. Faith is a fallback for those who dont want to have to think further. There are a very few se ...[text shortened]... but even in using those, you never have any substance to what you say - it is all hollow banter.
Originally posted by twiceaknightI am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the Last. REVELATIONS 22:13
BF, you talk about "GOD" so how do you define the "GOD" that you talk about. Please be as specific as possible eg. all powerful...etc. because different people have different perceptions of what "GOD" is, and different Christian organisations throughout history and also in our modern times define "HIM" differently. I was just wondering how you personally define "HIM."
In the beginning God created the heaven an the earth.
GENESIS 1:1
That men may know that, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. PSALMS 83:18
I believe that GOD is the Creator of all things. Nothing exsists without GOD. I believe THE WORD OF GOD, from GENESIS TO REVELATION, without Any Doubt. I believe that GOD loves us so much, that while we are deep in our sin, HE came to earth as JESUS CHRIST to sacrifice HIMSELF on that Cross on Calvery. I believe that after He was buried in that Tomb. Three days later HE came back to life. He walked the earth again and then rose to Heaven to sit on HIS Throne in Heaven.
Originally posted by blindfaith101Goody for youdy; worship your monster.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the Last. REVELATIONS 22:13
In the beginning God created the heaven an the earth.
GENESIS 1:1
That men may know that, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. PSALMS 83:18
I believe that GOD is the Creator of all things. Nothing exsists with ...[text shortened]... back to life. He walked the earth again and then rose to Heaven to sit on HIS Throne in Heaven.