22 Nov 05
Originally posted by KnightWulfeAMEN
You're not getting it. If this is truly the Word of God, then there is no room for interpretation. It is the Word of God and that is that. It has one meaning. What is that meaning? Whose teaching of that meaning is right, given that each denomination teaches it differently.
As the Word of God, it has a single meaning. Whose teaching of that meaning do you follow?
22 Nov 05
Originally posted by KnightWulfeSo be it, since this conversation is for Humans, none of this applies to you.
My mind is not limited by this lack of understanding. I know there is more than the common of humanity perceives.
As such, am I no longer human, as I am not limited in this fashion?
22 Nov 05
Originally posted by sasquatch672No problem, you can have my name and address and the address of the ministry where I fellowship. You are invited anytime. Doors are open 7 days aweek.
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH [b]GAWD you're an idiot!
I say that I'm humbled by God's mysteries and you say I deny God's power? WHERE DID I SAY THAT? Science can't understand creation? Where did I dispute that?
I say one thing, and you say I said something TOTALLY different. You know what this is like? This is like when that hitma ...[text shortened]... ou're terrible!
I want to break your fingers so you can never post here or anywhere again![/b]
22 Nov 05
Originally posted by KnightWulfeYou are right there are many denominations. Except what Leader, member or church teachings of Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, Orthodox, Seveth Day Adventist, African Methodist, Espiscopal, Amish, Greek Orthodox, Independant Fundamental, Anglican, Jehovahs Witness, Living Church, Church Of God In Christ, Messianic Judism, Calvinest, Penecostal, Presbyterian, Church Of Jesus Christ Of The Latter Day Saints, etc, etc, etc and etc etc etc. and etc. Died on that Cross on Calvery. Which of these demoninations sits on the right hand of GOD. THE WORD OF GOD, died on the cross, THE WORD OF GOD, was buried, THE WORD OF GOD, rose from the grave. It is THE WORD OF GOD, that sits on the right hand of GOD. Membership in a Denomination will not bring you salvation. Obedience to a Church creed will not give you Salvation.
BF, and LH
You are both circumventing the question. What makes the truth you follow, the correct truth? There are dozens of major denominations of Christianity. Each has its own interpretation of the Word of God, even if it is a slight difference from another denomination. What makes yours the right one?
BTW, what IS your denomination? (Both of you)
Only the Belief, the Faith, Obedience, in JESUS CHRIST, THE WORD OF GOD. Rependance of sin. Gives you Salvation and the chance to enter Heaven.
22 Nov 05
1 edit
Originally posted by blindfaith101
You are right there are many denominations. Except what Leader, member or church teachings of Catholic, Mormon, Baptist, Orthodox, Seveth Day Adventist, African Methodist, Espiscopal, Amish, Greek Orthodox, Independant Fundamental, Anglican, Jehovahs Witness, Living Church, Church Of God In Christ, Messianic Judism, Calvinest, Penecostal, Presbyterian, ...[text shortened]... CHRIST, THE WORD OF GOD. Rependance of sin. Gives you Salvation and the chance to enter Heaven.
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22 Nov 05
Originally posted by ivanhoeAre they co-equal? I see in the churches where they are referred to as co-equal.
http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p2.htm#II
The dogma of the Holy Trinity
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, ...[text shortened]... nd wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91
23 Nov 05
Originally posted by lucifershammer
[b]Actually, that it incorrect. The Roman Senate decided which books the Bible would include. There is documentable proof of that. You can go look it up.
If that's your assertion, the burden of proof is on you to provide the evidence. I'm not about to go hunting for some cockamimy conspiracy theory you've seen somewhere you can't remember. Roman Senate indeed!
If that is the case, what of the other denominations of Christianity?
Logically, the interpretations of other denominations will not be completely correct. They needn't be completely incorrect, however.
Hell - what of the other Biblically based religions?
Do you mean Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses?
What about Judaism? What about Islamic?
What about Judaism and Islam?[/b]
I gotta thank you for this one LH - Got a good laugh this morning. Thanks for starting my day off with a smile!
As to the burden of proof - sure. I may need a little time. I do not know that said information is available online. Besides, if I found something online, you could refute it as internet banter, so i will gather it at the library and tell you where you can look, since there are copywright laws.
Mormons and JWs? Both are Christian denominations.
I am talking about other RELIGIONS, not denominations, that follow the teachings of the Bible. Judaism and Islamic follow the teachings of the Old Testament. That makes them other RELIGIONS that follow the teachings of the Bible. Hinduism, Budhism and Wicca do not....just so you understand what I mean.
So AGAIN - What about Judaism and Islamic? They follow the Bible....are they also incorrect? It has been named that the Roman Catholic interpretation is the correct one.... So ALL other Christian denominations are wrong, Islam is wrong and Jews are wrong. So, what you are saying is that of the 4 billions Bible following citizens of humanity, the ~250 million that follow the Roman Catholic Church are the ones that are right?
23 Nov 05
Originally posted by KnightWulfeBoth reject the deity of Jesus Christ, and the Trinity, and a handful of other doctrines essentian to historic Christianity. There are many things that divide Protestants from the Church, Catholics from Luterans, Presbyterians from Anglicans, Baptists from Methodists, and so on. But these all agree on certain doctrines that Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter Day Saints reject.
Mormons and JWs? Both are Christian denominations.
23 Nov 05
Originally posted by WulebgrYes, this is very true, but they are still classified as Christians.
Both reject the deity of Jesus Christ, and the Trinity, and a handful of other doctrines essentian to historic Christianity. There are many things that divide Protestants from the Church, Catholics from Luterans, Presbyterians from Anglicans, Baptists from Methodists, and so on. But these all agree on certain doctrines that Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter Day Saints reject.
Personally, I think they make up their own regious group. Since they reject Christ, they are really not Christian. They are not Jewish and they are not Islamic. For my questioning, however, it is a semantic argument. They ALL still follow Biblical teachings. And that is what is at the core... Whose teaching of the Bible is the right one?
Even more so, why is the Bible the right teaching? There are 2+ billion other people that dont follow any thread of Biblical teaching, they have their own, UN-Bible related religion. Why is theirs wrong?
According to their teachings, theirs are correct.
The whole point of all of this is that every religion on the planet says they are correct. They say that THEY are the one's who know, or who interpret things the correct way. THEY are following the right path. There is not even a majority that can agree on a particular TRUE path.
23 Nov 05
3 edits
Originally posted by KnightWulfe
Originally posted by lucifershammer
[b][b]Actually, that it incorrect. The Roman Senate decided which books the Bible would include. There is documentable proof of that. You can go look it up.
If that's your assertion, the burden of proof is on you to provide the evidence. I'm not about to go hunting for some cockamimy conspiracy theory ...[text shortened]... umanity, the ~250 million that follow the Roman Catholic Church are the ones that are right?[/b][/b]
KW: As to the burden of proof - sure. I may need a little time. I do not know that said information is available online. Besides, if I found something online, you could refute it as internet banter, so i will gather it at the library and tell you where you can look, since there are copywright laws.
Under US Copyright laws, you can legitimately use "limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports"* without permission. Most use of quotes on this forum qualify as such IMO (no1 can give an exact legal opinion - but he quotes freely as well, so I don't think it's a problem).
Besides, I have never dismissed Internet documents as mere "banter". I take each case on its merits.
KW: I am talking about other RELIGIONS, not denominations, that follow the teachings of the Bible. Judaism and Islamic[sic] follow the teachings of the Old Testament. That makes them other RELIGIONS that follow the teachings of the Bible. Hinduism, Budhism and Wicca do not....just so you understand what I mean.
Judaism:-
Judaism does treat the books of the Christian OT† as being divinely inspired - but it is not the only source of religion. Judaism also depends on oral tradition and precedent (Talmud).
Islam:-
None of the books of the Bible have any official standing in Islam. The Qur'an alone is the Spoken Word of God. Islam draws from the same folk tradition as Judaism and Christianity - which is why the same people (Abraham/Ibrahim, Jacob/Yakub, David/Dawood, Jesus/Isa etc.) and stories appear in the Qur'an as well.
In summary, if one uses the term 'Bible' to refer to the Christian Bible (either version), then it is incorrect to say that Judaism and Islam are Biblically-based religions. Judaism uses a subset of the Bible; Islam does not use the Bible at all.
KW: So AGAIN - What about Judaism and Islamic[sic]? They follow the Bible....are they also incorrect?
Since Islam does not follow the Bible, I'll skip them (unless you want to do a comparative study of the two religions).
From an RC perspective, the Jewish interpretation of Scriptures is not incorrect - just incomplete. So, if one looks at the four senses of Scripture‡ - the Jewish interpretation(s) would be correct in the literal, moral and (in some cases) anagogical senses**. The allegorical/Christological sense would be missing, of course.
KW: So, what you are saying is that of the 4 billions Bible following citizens of humanity, the ~250 million that follow the Roman Catholic Church are the ones that are right?
As I pointed out above, Muslims are not followers of the Bible. So, your figures above should be corrected to 2.1bn (Jews inclusive) of whom 1bn are correct (Jews inclusive).
---
* http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-fairuse.html#howmuch
† With some qualifications, I suppose. I do not know if modern Jews include the Deuterocanonical books in their canon.
‡ CCC 115-116:
115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.[/quote]
116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83
117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.
1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction".85
3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading" ). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86
118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:
[quote]The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87
** Providing it does not violate the Catholic Magisterium. But even if it does, it need not be the "wrong" interpretation for Jews to follow.
23 Nov 05
Originally posted by KnightWulfeTrue - but just because they cannot all be right simultaneously it doesn't mean that they are all wrong simultaneously. One or more of them could still be correct.
Yes, this is very true, but they are still classified as Christians.
Personally, I think they make up their own regious group. Since they reject Christ, they are really not Christian. They are not Jewish and they are not Islamic. For my questioning, however, it is a semantic argument. They ALL still follow Biblical teachings. And that is what is at the ...[text shortened]... ollowing the right path. There is not even a majority that can agree on a particular TRUE path.