Originally posted by galveston75The question is not why would He this or why would He that. Do you contend that Deuteronomy 18:10-13 applies to works of fiction? If you do, what about works of fiction that portray other "sins"?
Yes, God does not approve of "associating" with ones that practice such things, so why would he approve of watching such things?
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75Spiritual growth is somewhat gradual as natural maturity is also gradual.
And the Bible says "not to even touch the unclean things" that God disapproves of.
We know that to mean have "nothing" to do with such things.
What the new Christian considers not a unclean matter today, on another day he may come to realize the truer nature of that matter.
The Bible condemns fornication. It does not condemn motion pictures which have a lot of scenes of fornication. Some common sense spiritual discernment should cause the believer to realize that such a moden invention as a fornication filled motion picture, may stir up his lust.
Then there are degrees of lawlessness portayed in motion pictures. The sense of life and peace in the spirit and in the conscience must be consulted.
" The mind set on the flesh is death. The mind set on the spirit is life and peace."
I may have life and peace because of my young spiritual age today. When I grow some more and confess some more, what was acceptable yesterday, may no longer be acceptable today.
The principle of the kingdom people is to be strict with one's self but accomodating and liberal towards others. The merciful will OBTAIN mercy. We are not to judge others and be loose on our own behavior. The Christian should be strict with himself but accomodating and understanding towards others.
A problem can be created when the Christian insist to hold his standard up to everyone else. IE. Because he refrains from Harry Potter, any Christian allowing their kids to go to Harry Potter movies gets his shunning and rebuke. This is not the way of the kingdom people.
Exacting towards myself. Accomodating toward my Christian brother.
That is love. And that is how the Lord taught us to live the kingdom life.
Originally posted by jaywillDo you think galveston75 and robbie have a point when they suggest that "Christians are counselled" not to enter a church and that this is another valid working example of heeding the instruction "not to even touch the unclean things" that are disapproved of by God [along with films like the ones under discussion here]?
Thanks galveston. There are some exhortations, of course, in the New Testament. But there is no getting around the need to learn that Christ is alive, available, and living IN the Christian.
With the Scripture to sensatize our conscience we disciples have to learn to walk, step by step abiding in this Person.
Originally posted by FMFThey have a point. They always have something of a point.
Do you think galveston75 and robbie have a point when they suggest that "Christians are counselled" not to enter a church and that this is another valid working example of heeding the instruction "not to even touch the unclean things" that are disapproved of by God [along with films like the ones under discussion here]?
But they are Jehovah's Witnesses and my God is the man Jesus. And there are differences on their concept of the Christian life and what the New Testament teaches.
And I am not going to clear that up in 25 words.
The way to leave Babylon is by transformation.
You may leave degraded Christianity, but degraded Christianity will not leave you that easily. It is something in our flesh. And just by "not going into that building" will degraded religion leave you that easily.
This is a big subject. There's a few words on it. And probably some of it you may not understand.
Originally posted by jaywillPresumably you attend a church. They are using exactly the same scripture that you use, to declare your church "unclean". The Bible as a guidebook for living is surely brought into disrepute by its devotees using it to issue such denunciations of each other. If you don't attend a church then by all means just ignore this comment.
This is a big subject. There's a few words on it. And probably some of it you may not understand.
Originally posted by FMFit depends entirely on how it is portrayed, for example snow white and the seven
So you do think the Bible condemns stuff like Harry Potter or you don't? You seem to have been trying to have it both ways across the last few pages.
dwarfs has elements of 'magic', a talking mirror, yet it hardly portrays the occult as a
source of virtue does it.
-Removed-where does one draw the line? how about the faculty of conscience according to our
understanding of scripture, on the basis of, accurate knowledge?
(Philippians 1:9-10) . . .And this is what I continue praying, that your love may abound
yet more and more with accurate knowledge and full discernment.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieCan the Bible also be used to condemn a fictional work that portrays a murderer getting away with his crime or one that portrays an adulterous
it depends entirely on how it is portrayed, for example snow white and the seven
dwarfs has elements of 'magic', a talking mirror, yet it hardly portrays the occult as a
source of virtue does it.
relationship in which those involved are happy or one that portrays a homosexual person positively?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThat depends on what you define as 'the occult'. In most fairy tales involving magic, there is good magic and bad magic and Snow White is no exception (depending on the version, the princess is awakened by a kiss, which is surely good magic). If you define 'the occult' as bad magic, then neither Snow White nor Harry Potter portray it as a source of virtue. If on the other hand you define 'the occult' as 'the supernatural', then theism can be included and it too often portrays it as a source of virtue.
it depends entirely on how it is portrayed, for example snow white and the seven
dwarfs has elements of 'magic', a talking mirror, yet it hardly portrays the occult as a
source of virtue does it.
-Removed-
I know Chrisitans who are vehemently (scarily) against the Harry Potter films; it's as though they believe the films themselves are an incarnation of evil. These same Chrisitans feel the same about The Passion of the Christ movie.
First, we have to love them. We have to pray for one another.
The problem I have with all this is, where to draw the line. For example what about the Chronicles of Narnia which is about witches and spells and golbins and talking animals but was written by a Christian who also wrote Chrisitan books?
Yes. C.S. Lewis was a Christian writing such books for children.
What about the cartoons of Sinbad? What about Jason and the Argonauts? What about Snow White, Shrek and rest of the disney catalogue?
I like sci fi.
And then it could extend into action movies, war movies, reading the newspaper, going to the shops on a Sunday, listneing to pop music on the radio, wearing denim, having your hair slightly longer than your collar, eating pork, talking to people of other religions...
Where would you draw the proverbial line?
The line is draw in each Christian with the sense of spiritual "life and peace.". The sense of "life and peace" is growing matter. It is a maturing matter. It is not static. It is deepening and expanding.
Just like confession to the Lord of our senses deepens over time. Confession of our errors, weaknesses, shortcomings, and mistakes deepen as we grow. As our consciousness grows and as the inward light encreases so also our realization of our sins becomes clearer.
We are told to do all to the glory of God. So we should pray concerning the many things, and indeed all things, that we do. Then if we have the peace within to do something, we should not be bothered. If we pray and give thanks but do not have the peace to do something then we should not do it.
"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (Romans. 8:6)
This is not natural life that is being spoken of. This is the ZOE - divine life which is the living Christ who has come into our spirit. This is the Triune God indwelling the believer. The mind turned and set on the regenerated human spirit is divine life and divine peace. And "life and peace" inform us when the Lord is pleased and when He is not pleased. When we lose the sense of life and peace we have to take the blood for our shortcoming and come back to the sense of "life and peace".
Paul also writes - "God ... Who has made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant, ministers not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." (2 Cor. 2:6)
Just going by the letter can be killing to the spiritual walk.
Not just trying to live by the letter of the Old Testament law is killing.
But even trying to live by the New Testament letter instructions without turning to the living Person of Jesus, also can be killing.
So we have the letter which says - "Now the works of the flesh are these ... sorcery ... and such things ..." .
This sensatizes our conscience. But to apply this word to each situation we have to turn our heart to the living Lord within and follow the index of His eyes. The index is the area around the eyes which reveal a person's attitude. Now I do not mean literally that we see the index of fhe Lord's eyes on His face.
But spiritually the Christian does have a sense of the Lord's face and the index of His eyes within our heart. When He is pleased we have the inward sense of life and peace. And when He is not we lose the sense of life and peace and we have a sense of dryness, unease, restlessness, darkening, thirst. But when we have life and peace we have joy, fulness, peace.
That is the same as the index of the eyes of the Lord Jesus' face letting us know that we are okay, even that we are pleasing to Him. You heard about grieving the Spirit ?
"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph. 4:30)
To grieve the Holy Spirit is to grieve God. That proves the Holy Spirit has feelings and is a Person. The Holy Spirit is the available Christ, the available Triune God dispensed into our hearts. And we should seek the smile of His face and the inner sense of life and peace. We should learn what grieves the Spirit and what causes the Spirit to flow more and more within us.
With our children, we often have to allow them to learn this sense of life and peace themselves. We do set up some paramaters for them as they are young. But eventually as they get older and older both naturally and spiritually, we have to allow them to subjectively learn the sense of not grieving the Holy Spirit themselves.
I recommend to you the book "The Experience of Life" by Witness Lee. And there read about the growth of life. Here is the Online version. Look firstly through the table of contents. See if the Holy Spirit prompts some portion that might be helpful. And go prayerfully to that chapter and read some more.
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=0804
1 edit
The real issue here is ones heart and how to guard it from becoming detuned or desensitized and could actually let us accept or even like things that can harm our outlook on life and can harm our relationship with God.
Everyone has a conscience and everyones is different. We all react differently to any given situation. But God knows that our conscience, if not trained to warn us if we are presented with a questionable situation such as is being discussed here, can cause us harm.
And with such a thing as spiritism it can even eventually open up some doors that we may not want opened. The Devil is always watching and if a person progresses into a real interest into the ocult, he sees that and could make it so a person gets very deep into that mind set.
So it is God's councel that tells us to avoid these things and to not even start the first steps so to say in watching them as in this movie or others that show this especially in a good light.
Here is a comment that explains how we can fool ourselves into believeing that something that can be dangerous may not look that way.
Watchtower 04/2/15 pages 17-19:
"Guard Against Self-Deception"
Imperfect humans have a tendency that Satan is quick to exploit—self-deception. “The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate,” says Jeremiah 17:9. And James wrote: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire.” (James 1:14)
If our heart gets enticed, it may, in effect, wave sin enticingly before us, making it appear attractive and harmless. Such a view is deceptive, for giving oneself up to sin ultimately leads to ruin.—Romans 8:6.
Self-deception can easily ensnare us. The treacherous heart may rationalize away a serious personality flaw or make excuses for a grave sin. (1 Samuel 15:13-15, 20, 21) Our desperate heart may also look for ways to justify questionable conduct.
Take, for example, the matter of entertainment. Some entertainment is wholesome and enjoyable. However, much of what this world offers—in movies and television programs and on Internet sites—is obscene and immoral. It is easy to convince ourselves that we can view seedy entertainment without any harm. Some even reason, “It does not bother my conscience, so what’s the problem?” But such individuals are ‘deceiving themselves with false reasoning.’—James 1:22.
How can we be on guard against self-deception? To begin with, we need to remember that the human conscience is not always reliable. Consider the case of the apostle Paul. Before becoming a Christian, he persecuted Christ’s followers. (Acts 9:1, 2) His conscience may not have bothered him at the time. Obviously, though, it had been misdirected. “I was ignorant and acted with a lack of faith,” said Paul. (1 Timothy 1:13) So the mere fact that certain entertainment does not bother our conscience is in itself no guarantee that our course is right. Only a healthy conscience properly trained by God’s Word can be a safe guide.
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75Are Harry Potter films "immoral"? Do you believe "Satan" has "exploited" Harry Potter films?
Take, for example, the matter of entertainment. Some entertainment is wholesome and enjoyable. However, much of what this world offers—in movies and television programs and on Internet sites—is obscene and immoral.
Originally posted by jaywillIf you truly understand AND FOLLOW the teachings and example of Christ, such trivial matters as which church you enter, which movie you see, which evil people you associate with, what foods you eat, etc etc, are of no consequence.
They have a point. They always have something of a point.
But they are Jehovah's Witnesses and my God is the man Jesus. And there are differences on their concept of the Christian life and what the New Testament teaches.
And I am not going to clear that up in 25 words.
The way to leave Babylon is by transformation.
You may leave degraded Chri ...[text shortened]... is a big subject. There's a few words on it. And probably some of it you may not understand.
Christ and all the Apostles, associated with the sinners of their time, the drunks, the lowlifes, the prostitutes, the simple minded and the poor. Many of these people will make up the kingdom of heaven. The ones with their nose in the air who are modern day Pharisees, who Christ called the children of the Devil, who “ honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. “, are the ones to be wary of.
I am personally shocked to see the amount of Christians whose faith is so shallow that they need to place so much emphasis on such nonsense. I guess it is no surprise.
1 edit
Originally posted by FMF
Presumably you attend a church. They are using exactly the same scripture that you use, to declare your church "unclean". The Bible as a guidebook for living is surely brought into disrepute by its devotees using it to issue such denunciations of each other. If you don't attend a church then by all means just ignore this comment.
Presumably you attend a church.
I am a part OF the church. I am a constituent member OF the church.
I do not go to building which is called a church. I may go to a hall to meet with other Christians and also to meet from house to house. But I am a piece of the church. For the church is a living organism.
I attend meetings of the local church. Yes.
They are using exactly the same scripture that you use, to declare your church "unclean".
Can you give me an example ?
The Bible as a guidebook for living is surely brought into disrepute by its devotees using it to issue such denunciations of each other. If you don't attend a church then by all means just ignore this comment.
The first church really expounded about by Paul is the church in the city of Corinth. His letters of First and Second Corinthian show the inner workings of a TYPICAL new testament church.
YUK! Full of problems. Just read First Corinthians
The new testament church is not a utopia. Are there disgreements between brothers ? Yes. But there is also overcoming the problems to live Christ. And Paul said concerning the Christians in Corinth this important point -
First Corinthians 11:19 - "For first of all, when you come together in the church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and some part of it I believe.
For there must even be parties among you, that those who are approved may become manifest among you."
If the first century church displayed some approved Christian living and some inferior Christian living, there is no reason why we should expect the 21rst Century church not to be similar.
We do not dispair because there are differencess of opinion and some Christians may condemn others in misunderstanding or lack of love. Or even if some Christians have a legitimate complaint about other brothers, this does not cause us dispair to give up the whole New Testament experience.
How much of this do you understand of what I have written ? Do you feel I squarely addressed your point ? Or do you feel my short little post didn't really address your point ?