- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
27 Nov 18
@divegeester
Good debate. Well worth the time.
Ron Brown, James White vs Sir Anthony Buzzard, Joseph Good
Trinitarians vs. Unitarians debate
1/2
2/2
- Joined
- 16 Feb 08
- Moves
- 117390
27 Nov 18
@sonship saidIf a person rejects the teaching of the trinity will they face eternal suffering?
@divegeester
Good debate. Well worth the time.
Ron Brown, James White vs Sir Anthony Buzzard, Joseph Good
Trinitarians vs. Unitarians debate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYhaH0ftujI 1/2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8jp73vNIAI 2/2
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
The mystery of the seven stars which you saw upon My right hand and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the messengers of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. (Rev. 1:20)
After seeing this the word "church" became no longer a common term to me. I saw that a "church" in the New Testament is certainly something of supernatural nature. Previously I took the word for granted. "Anyone can start a church, Right?"
Christ's ministry is like a priest tending to the shinning of the lampstand in the temple. Oil needs to be provide. Wicks need to be trimmed. Ashes need to be removed. Vigilance is needed to assure that that lamps are burning brightly.
The unite of gathering Christ recognizes as encompassing the boundary of a church on the earth is the city. It is not the block, or the street. It is not the pastor or the doctrine. It is the locality. This is what God sees - the Christians should stand as one according to cities.
" ... and the seven lampstands are the seven churches"
What was that? Seven churches in one city ?
No.
One church covering all of Asia?
No.
Three churches in Ephesus, two in Smyrna, and two in Pergamos?
No.
What God ordained as the normal boundary of a local church is the locality. One city matched with one church for that city.
What you see write in a scroll and send it to the sven churches:
to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamos and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.
And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me, and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands." (Rev. 1:11b-12)
God has an answer for our divisions.
Come back to one city matched with one church.
God has an answer to the problem of denominations.
Come back to one church established according to one city.
The number who return is secondary.
The blessing on the God ordained unity is primary.
@sonship saidI am interested in the moral debate surrounding the implications of your torturer god ideology, and I have demonstrated this ~ the fact that I "care" about that discourse ~ amply over the last decade. Do you remember?
You don't care. Remember? It means nothing to you anyway.
What I "don't care" about are your threats aimed at me about the demented inexplicable violence your God - according to your "moral" mindmap - is supposedly going to visit upon me. That's the thing I don't care about: your scaremongering and your attempted threats and warnings. Will you remember this? Or are you going to trot out this straw man "debating point" heedlessly every week or month for the next however many years?
@sonship saidWell, I don't think Jehovah's Witnesses are going to be tortured by your god figure after they die. No, so I am not personally worried about their posthumous well-being.
@FMF
If Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus was sent by God and if they obey Jesus' commandments, isn't that a good thing? You think they will be tortured for eternity?
Oh, but it really doesn't matter to you one way or another. Remember?
But in the context of the debate and discussion that goes on on this forum about the moral dimension of a belief that Jehovah's Witnesses are going to be tortured ~ and the belief that they deserve it ~ for having different religious beliefs than you [that being the long and short of your moral stance, after all] then I think the degree to which the discourse about it "matters" to me is clear from my sustained interest in the topic and my willingness to enter into discussion about it.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
28 Nov 18
And I turned to see the voice that spoke with me, and when I turned, I saw seven golden lampstands.
In the beginning of Revelation there are many sevens.
There are seven churches, seven stars in Christ's hand, the seven Spirits of God.
There are also the seven seals, the seven trumpets, the seven thunders, the seven bowls of the wrath of God.
Mostly in the end of Revelation there are many twelves.
There are twelves foundations, twelve manner of precious stones, twelve angels, twelve gates, twelve fruits of the tree of life, twelve months, twelve times twelve.
Seven is a number standing for perfection in time.
Twelve is a number standing for perfection in eternity.
Seven is a number meaning God is added to man.
Twelve is a number meaning God is mingled with man.
Seven is composed by 3 + 4 or 4 +_3. or 6 + 1.
The 3 stands for the Triune God and 4 stands for the creation, mainly man. So when we add the Triune God to the created man we arrive at 7 signifying perfection in TIME.
The number 12 is also composed of 3 and 4. But instead of addition (3 + 4) or (4+ 3) or ( 6 + 1) it is arrived at by multiplaction ( 3 X 4 ) or (4 X 3). Here is the mingling of 3 and 4. Here is the mingling of the Triune God with the creation (mainly the created man) to arrive at God mingled with man for ETERNAL perfection.
The eternal purpose of God is to mingle Himself with His creation - man. Another way to look at this is the mass production of the God-man Jesus Christ Who was absolutely God and Humanity united, blended, mingled and interpenertrated mutually for an incorporation in oneness.
I learn all this from Life Studies of the Bible by brother Witness Lee.
For God first must ADD man to Himself. Then God must MINGLE Himself with humanity. The New Jerusalem is the ultimate mingling of God and man in eternity.
This CITY of twelve is the focus of the last two chapters of the BIble and is the consummation of all God's eternal purpose.
God is revealing these things to the church and to humanity in these last days. I praise Him for it.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
28 Nov 18
When a man or woman receives Christ this is the beginning of God MINGLING with their being.
Regeneration initiates the mingling process. We have to view the relationship as mingling because whoever is joined to the Lord is one spirit with the Lord.
"He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)
The human spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit is God and ---- MINGLING takes place within us the two spirits become one spirit.
This is only the beginning.
This is the kernel of a tremendous and eternal union of God and man in which the saved enters personally.
Ask the Lord Jesus to mingle Himself with your human spirit so that the Holy Spirit the Third of the Triune God and your human spirit become "one spirit" joining you in life to God and God to you.
I learned this from the Apostle Paul who wrote -
" He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor. 6:17)
@sonship saidKellyJay,
I know you and I do not see everything in the Bible exactly the same. For one you are for YEC, I have chosen "Gap" OEC.
With whom do you feel a closer bond of same-mindedness, same spiritual unity? ...with me who confesses the Son of God or with FMF ?
Answer if you can.
Dbjecker,'
I am certain we could find something to quibble about in the BIble. But to who do you feel more of a kinship of spiritual bond, with me or with FMF?
Suzianne,
I know that you seem to reject what I wrote about eternal punishment. And there are other things I bet we would not agree on.
With who do you feel more of a uniting bond of spiritual unity? ... with me or with FMF ?
Answer if you can please.
I am out here on a limb now, so give a reply to settle a matter one way or another.
Did they respond to your demand for statements of loyalty or "unity"?
Did they do it on this thread in public like you seemed to want [if so, I must have missed it] - or did they do it secretly?
You say you went "out on a limb". Did they drag you back in with their statements about whether they have a better bond with 'sonship or FMF'?
- Joined
- 16 Feb 08
- Moves
- 117390
28 Nov 18
@fmf saidYes it was interesting to note that not one of them responded.
[b] KellyJay,
I know you and I do not see everything in the Bible exactly the same. For one you are for YEC, I have chosen "Gap" OEC.
With whom do you feel a closer bond of same-mindedness, same spiritual unity? ...with me who confesses the Son of God or with FMF ?
Answer if you can.
Dbjecker,'
I am certain we could find something to quibble about in the BIbl ...[text shortened]... drag you back in with their statements about whether they have a better bond with 'sonship or FMF'?
28 Nov 18
@sonship saidI don't have a bond with FMF spiritually, as he has turned his back on Jesus Christ.
KellyJay,
I know you and I do not see everything in the Bible exactly the same. For one you are for YEC, I have chosen "Gap" OEC.
With whom do you feel a closer bond of same-mindedness, same spiritual unity? ...with me who confesses the Son of God or with FMF ?
Answer if you can.
Dbjecker,'
I am certain we could find something to quibble a ...[text shortened]... can please.
I am out here on a limb now, so give a reply to settle a matter one way or another.
With all who claim to know Christ I try to see them as those crucified with Christ
so there is a bond. It has nothing to do with agreements on doctrine but Jesus
Christ alone He is the only thing that matters in the end.
28 Nov 18
@fmf saidI only look at a handful of posts each day if you hadn't bolded his post I would have
[b] KellyJay,
I know you and I do not see everything in the Bible exactly the same. For one you are for YEC, I have chosen "Gap" OEC.
With whom do you feel a closer bond of same-mindedness, same spiritual unity? ...with me who confesses the Son of God or with FMF ?
Answer if you can.
Dbjecker,'
I am certain we could find something to quibble about in the BIbl ...[text shortened]... drag you back in with their statements about whether they have a better bond with 'sonship or FMF'?
never seen it.
@kellyjay saidsonship's conversational gambit was embarrassing and narcissistic. It took an atheist to prod you into playing along with his little game which is all about sonship's umbridge with divegeester.
I only look at a handful of posts each day if you hadn't bolded his post I would have
never seen it.