@secondson saidBut how is that punishment?
Simply.
Punishment.
For what?
Rejection.
Seams cruel. I know.
You asked me if I, 'really believe the rich man, without a physical frame, in hell, could feel physical pain from a fire?'
If the answer to this question is 'no' then what is the function of a fire that doesn't cause pain and how would such a fire qualify as punishment?
I look forward to your simple answer. 😀
1 edit
@fmf saidPeople attempt to sugarcoat this, it is as bad as it sounds, and is so for the full
If the people are not conscious of the suffering, why is there supposedly "weeping and gnashing of teeth"?
duration of time. The place was created for the devil and his angels, it is a place
of torrment there isn't way to make it nice, or go away. Evil and wickedness are
going to be ending in this place, it is the consequence of both of those.
@kellyjay saidWhich of these 14 elements-of-ideology do you believe and not believe?
People attempt to sugarcoat this, it is as bad as it sounds, and is so for the full
duration of time. The place was created for the devil and his angels, it is a place
of torrment there isn't way to make it nice, or go away. Evil and wickedness are
going to be ending in this place, it is the consequence of both of those.
1: Non-believers are supposedly thrown into a Lake of Fire. ~ 2: Here, they are made to suffer for eternity. ~ 3: This is punishment and revenge for their lack of faith and belief in the Christian God/Jesus. ~ 4: They have 'failed to believe' that they were forgiven by Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection. ~ 5: This lack of belief and failure are unforgivable. ~ 6: In Hell/The Lake of Fire they are not destroyed and they are not allowed to die in order to escape the flames. They are conscious. They are tormented by the flames. ~ 7: This torture is everlasting. ~ 8: The still living Jesus and some angels look on - for eternity - as all these non-Christians suffer in the flames. ~ 9: This punishment is for unforgiven sins and is perfect justice and the ultimate morality. ~ 10: Lack of Christian belief makes a person a willing participant in the rebellion against God of a supernatural figure called Satan. ~ 11: Everyone should fear God's wrath and choose to believe the Jesus story. ~ 12: Christians who believe all these things, and who believe that their sins have been forgiven BECAUSE they believe all these things, go to Heaven. ~ 13: God created billions and billions of human beings with the explicit foreknowledge that they would adhere to other religions and traditions and, as a consequence, be subjected to everlasting torture in this way. ~ 14: But, because of 'free will', those billions of people who do go to Hell, they send themselves there knowingly and wilfully, even if they do not believe in the torturer god and do not subscribe to the torturer god ideology.
-Removed-It appears to me that he wants it both ways. On one hand the fires of hell are a punishment, but on the other those consumed by such fires are not able to feel physical pain. (Which then of course begs the question, how is that a punishment? )
I don't like Kelly's answer either, but at least he is not trying to have his cake an eat it. (Always looking for an opportunity to use that expression).
Secondson's hell sounds more like a warm mug of cocoa.
@fmf saidBottom line reason for Hell is evil, the rebellion against what is loving and righteous.
Which of these 14 elements-of-ideology do you believe and not believe?
1: Non-believers are supposedly thrown into a Lake of Fire. ~ 2: Here, they are made to suffer for eternity. ~ 3: This is punishment and revenge for their lack of faith and belief in the Christian God/Jesus. ~ 4: They have 'failed to believe' that they were forgiven by Jesus' s ...[text shortened]... , even if they do not believe in the torturer god and do not subscribe to the torturer god ideology.
Non-believers and believers are going to end up in Hell, the only distinction
between them will be those who are right with God through Jesus Christ. This
means you can actually mouth acceptance to Christ but not serve Him, as it has
been pointed out before not everyone who says, "Lord, Lord" belongs to the
Lord. Hell will be around as long as Heaven. Hell is for the evil and wicked, there
are those that love evil more than the righteousness that God offers to us in
Christ Jesus, and will prefer it to Jesus Christ, so they get what they want. Life and
death are put before us, if we choose poorly we reap what we sow.
@kellyjay saidWhich of the 14 elements-of-ideology do you believe and not believe? I have numbered them for you.
Bottom line reason for Hell is evil, the rebellion against what is loving and righteous.
Non-believers and believers are going to end up in Hell, the only distinction
between them will be those who are right with God through Jesus Christ. This
means you can actually mouth acceptance to Christ but not serve Him, as it has
been pointed out before not everyone who says, "Lo ...[text shortened]... they get what they want. Life and
death are put before us, if we choose poorly we reap what we sow.
@kellyjay saidSo for you, your belief in Jesus does not guarantee "salvation"? Indeed, you may be a believer who is going to "end up in Hell" if your living out of the notion of being "right with God through Jesus Christ" falls short in some way, is that right?
Non-believers and believers are going to end up in Hell, the only distinction
between them will be those who are right with God through Jesus Christ.
@kellyjay saidI'd prefer for you to go through them. I think you will agree with more than 10 or them or indeed all 14 perhaps. SecondSon is dodging them too. Why would you both be so evasive?
Work it out.
I'm not interested in your 14 elements, as you have shown me I can give you
what you want and your still not happy.