@fmf saidI disagree with the whole notion of a "torturer god ideology" and any number of "elements" you assert that supports that idea.
Do you agree or disagree with each one?
There's a whole Bible full of stuff FMF you can refer to, by chapter and verse if you will, that we can discuss along this topic, but I won't answer loaded questions that rephrase and mischaracterize the intent and meaning of said quotations.
@fmf saidTalk about deflection.
Take it up with people who believe all or most of the 14 things I listed. Don't try to use me as a proxy.
This notion of a "torturer god" is your puppy. You talk about it constantly.
But, apparently, you're to timid intellectually to actually discuss it in real terms relative to the Bible.
@secondson saidLike I say, take it up with its proponents.
Talk about deflection.
This notion of a "torturer god" is your puppy. You talk about it constantly.
But, apparently, you're to timid intellectually to actually discuss it in real terms relative to the Bible.
@secondson saidYou disagree with all 14 elements that I laid out?
I disagree with the whole notion of a "torturer god ideology" and any number of "elements" you assert that supports that idea.
@secondson said'In Hades, where he (the rich man) was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ (Luke 22-24).
Talk about deflection.
This notion of a "torturer god" is your puppy. You talk about it constantly.
But, apparently, you're to timid intellectually to actually discuss it in real terms relative to the Bible.
Please help me to understand how someone suffering in agony, in fire, is not being tortured?
@fmf saidLet's put it this way; I disagree with both what you think the Bible says about God and what you say others say about what the Bible says about God.
You disagree with all 14 elements that I laid out?
Your "14 elements" are a gross misrepresentation of what the Bible teaches and what Christians say relative to everlasting punishment. In fact, they are so far out in left field they're not worthy of serious consideration on any level.
You should be embarrassed for listing them as though they merited even the minutest interest by any serious student of scripture.
@ghost-of-a-duke said"...because I am in agony in this fire".
'In Hades, where he (the rich man) was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ (Luke 22-24).
Please help me to understand how someone suffering in agony, in fire, is not being tortured?
The KJV says, "for I am tormented in this flame".
I went over this in detail in another thread. Apparently you missed it.
You probably won't accept this rationale, but look closely at the wording. Does it say "for I am tormented by this flame?
Think sir! Do you really believe the rich man, without a physical frame, in hell, could feel physical pain from a fire?
@secondson saidWhat is the function of the fire? (If not to torment).
"...because I am in agony in this fire".
The KJV says, "for I am tormented in this flame".
I went over this in detail in another thread. Apparently you missed it.
You probably won't accept this rationale, but look closely at the wording. Does it say "for I am tormented by this flame?
Think sir! Do you really believe the rich man, without a physical frame, in hell, could feel physical pain from a fire?
@ghost-of-a-duke saidNo one is in Hell yet that is not the Lake of Fire.
'In Hades, where he (the rich man) was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ (Luke 22-24).
Please help me to understand how someone suffering in agony, in fire, is not being tortured?
@fmf saidEarlier in the thread you said we were all proponents of that.
Like I say, take it up with its proponents.
Now the only two participants who believe in hell have called you out as having not successfully described their beliefs.
We didn't deflect.
You just failed.
And no surprise the guy who uses super aggravating language to irritate others can't even describe their beliefs accurately as he's always tripping over his own bias.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidSimply.
What is the function of the fire? (If not to torment).
Punishment.
For what?
Rejection.
Seams cruel. I know.
@philokalia saidNo, I didn't. I named names. And I mentioned a couple of names of Christians who don't subscribe to torturer god ideology. Do you believe your god figure tortures anyone after they die?
Earlier in the thread you said we were all proponents of that.
@philokalia saidI think it is an accurate description.
And no surprise the guy who uses super aggravating language to irritate others can't even describe their beliefs accurately as he's always tripping over his own bias.