Originally posted by FetchmyjunkSo we agree.
We are justified by faith and if that faith is genuine it will be accompanied by obedience to the commands of Christ. I have never claimed that obedience is not required.
IF. and only IF.
IF it is not accompanied by obedience then what happens?
I ask because there are many Christians here who claim that whether there is obedience or not, that saved person will still get eternal life. I notice you do not challenge this doctrine.
Originally posted by Rajk999If someone claims to have faith yet they don't strive to be obedient to Christ, their faith is dead. God knows who is saved and who is not, and each individual knows what their relationship with God is even if they may pretend otherwise. I personally don't think someone who purposefully breaks the commands of Christ, yet claims to have faith, is saved, but that is my opinion I can't judge them.
So we agree.
IF. and only IF.
IF it is not accompanied by obedience then what happens?
I ask because there are many Christians here who claim that whether there is obedience or not, that saved person will still get eternal life. I notice you do not challenge this doctrine.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkThe point is that God knows.
If someone claims to have faith yet they don't strive to be obedient to Christ, their faith is dead. God knows who is saved and who is not, and each individual knows what their relationship with God is even if they may pretend otherwise. I personally don't think someone who purposefully breaks the commands of Christ, yet claims to have faith, is saved, but that is my opinion I can't judge them.
Do you think that Paul knows who is saved? The answer is no. But yet he told lots of Christian saints in all the churches that they are saved by grace. YET THEY ARE NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO BE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Clearly like I keep saying 'saved by grace' DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN entry into the Kingdom of God.
Entry into the Kingdom of God is up to Jesus who will judge by how obedient that person was to his commandments.
Originally posted by Rajk999Knowing HOW people are saved is not that same as knowing WHO is saved. Surely you should be able to see the difference. Aren't you also claiming to know HOW people are saved?
The point is that God knows.
Do you think that Paul knows who is saved? The answer is no. But yet he told lots of Christian saints in all the churches that they are saved by grace. YET THEY ARE NOT NECESSARILY GOING TO BE IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
Clearly like I keep saying 'saved by grace' DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN entry into the Kingdom of God.
Entr ...[text shortened]... ingdom of God is up to Jesus who will judge by how obedient that person was to his commandments.
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Originally posted by FetchmyjunkSo you agree that when Paul told the Christian saints at Ephesus that they are saved by grace, he was in fact NOT TELLING THEM, that they have eternal life.
Knowing HOW people are saved is not that same as knowing WHO is saved. Surely you should be able to see the difference. Aren't you also claiming to know HOW people are saved?
Originally posted by Rajk999I have always thought that everyone that is 'saved' has 'eternal life'. I don't get why you think someone who is saved does not have eternal life.
So you agree that when Paul told the Christian saints at Ephesus that they are saved by grace, he was in fact NOT TELLING THEM, that they have eternal life.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkOk so when Paul, speaking to the Christian saints at Ephesus said that they are saved by grace [or given eternal life], and not by works, was he speaking to all of them or some of them?
I have always thought that everyone that is 'saved' has 'eternal life'. I don't get why you think someone who is saved does not have eternal life.
Originally posted by Rajk999He was referring to all those who had genuine faith and hence were doing good works as well. He said it to clarify that it was by grace through faith that they were saved and not through the works so as not to boast in their own 'goodness'.
Ok so when Paul, speaking to the Christian saints at Ephesus said that they are saved by grace [or given eternal life], and not by works, was he speaking to all of them or some of them?
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkSo according to you, there are two groups of Christian saints which Paul are addressing in Ephesians.
He was referring to all those who had genuine faith and hence were doing good works as well. He said it to clarify that it was by grace through faith that they were saved and not through the works so as not to boast in their own 'goodness'.
- Christian saints who are saved by grace [Ephesians 2:8]
- Christian saints who are not saved and are denied entry into the Kingdom of God [Ephesians 5:3-5]
Originally posted by Rajk999In Ephesians 5 he was mentioning clearly what sins would not be found among those that are truly saved.
So according to you, there are two groups of Christian saints which Paul are addressing in Ephesians.
- Christian saints who are saved by grace [Ephesians 2:8]
- Christian saints who are not saved and are denied entry into the Kingdom of God [Ephesians 5:3-5]