12 Dec 16
1 edit
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkAs far as I was concerned, what I believed in was real and my faith was sincere, strong and long lasting. But I lost my faith. You said this loss of faith meant that - you think - my faith was not genuine. So, this means that we don't know whether your faith is genuine because we don't yet know whether you will lose your faith because you have not yet passed away having not lost your faith. You conceded this as being true, right? You said "Time will tell". If you want to backtrack, you can.
If i cannot know what someone else's relationship with God is it doesn't mean that I can't know what my own relationship with God is. I'm surprised you can't fathom that.
I am not talking about whether you can or "cannot know what someone else's relationship with God is"; this is a red herring. I am simply applying your logic about lost faith means there never was faith, or words to that effect, to you and every person who is currently a Christian. If any of them ever lose their faith, according to your logic, it means they were never really Christians in the first place. Right?
So nobody (including you) knows if you are a "real" Christian with "genuine" faith - and will not know - until you navigate your whole life without losing that faith. This is simply the upshot of the logic ~ that you applied to me ~ applied to you.
12 Dec 16
1 edit
Originally posted by FMF
As far as I was concerned, what I believed in was real and my faith was sincere, strong and long lasting. But I lost my faith. You said this loss of faith meant that - you think - my faith was not genuine. So, this means that we don't know whether your faith is genuine because we don't yet know whether you will lose your faith because you have not yet passed away having not lost your faith. You conceded this as being true, right? You said "Time will tell". If you want to backtrack, you can.
I am not talking about whether you can or "cannot know what someone else's relationship with God is"; this is a red herring. I am simply applying your logic about lost faith means there never was faith, or words to that effect, to you and every person who is currently a Christian. If any of them ever lose their faith, according to your logic, it means they were never really Christians in the first place. Right?
So nobody (including you) knows if you are a "real" Christian with "genuine" faith - and will not know - until you navigate your whole life without losing that faith. This is simply the upshot of the logic ~ that you applied to me ~ applied to you.
You are the one claiming your faith felt real, not me, so it is your claim, and your logic, not mine.
12 Dec 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkGet away from church doctrine and website doctrine and read the Bible for yourself. When you do that things will become clearer.
So the atheist that has read the Bible and rejected Jesus as Lord, is also saved by grace even if they never repent and believe the gospel?
It is church doctrine that caused you to quote Ephesians 2 a million times without understanding it, while at the same time ignore the rest of Pauls letter to the Ephesians on what is needed for eternal life.
12 Dec 16
Originally posted by Rajk999Sorry but you are the one making the claim that contradicts scripture, not me. If any claim you make contradicts scripture then you are the one with the false doctrine. Your claim that we can be saved by works without faith is clearly in contradiction to scripture.
Get away from church doctrine and website doctrine and read the Bible for yourself. When you do that things will become clearer.
It is church doctrine that caused you to quote Ephesians 2 a million times without understanding it, while at the same time ignore the rest of Pauls letter to the Ephesians on what is needed for eternal life.
12 Dec 16
Originally posted by FMFYour post is based on a claim that you made, i.e. that you believed you your faith was genuine. That is a claim you made, I did not make that claim. Do you honestly not understand that?
Oh dear. This sounds like a dodge. Do you honestly not understand the post of mine you just read?
12 Dec 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI notice that you continue to quote Epheisans 2 and ignore what Paul said in Ephesians 5 .. I think that says it all.. good luck to you.
Sorry but you are the one making the claim that contradicts scripture, not me. If any claim you make contradicts scripture then you are the one with the false doctrine. Your claim that we can be saved by works without faith is clearly in contradiction to scripture.
12 Dec 16
2 edits
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI'll try again. I am talking about the claim YOU made about whether or not I used to be a Christian. I have never claimed that I wasn't a real Christian. It is YOU who has made this claim. And the logic is being applied to your claim to be a Christian, and you have become evasive. I'll try again.
Your post is based on a claim that you made, i.e. that you believed you your faith was genuine. That is a claim you made, I did not make that claim. Do you honestly not understand that?
I was, by any definition, a real life, walking, talking, praying Christian for more than 25 years. Then I lost my faith over a period of years. This loss of faith in the things that I'd held to be true for so long doesn't mean I wasn't a real Christian back in the day.
However, you have asserted that it DOES mean that: you are claiming that my loss of faith means that I was NEVER a Christian. So, if you apply this logic to me, then it means - if we apply it to you too - that we don't know - even you don't know - if you are a real Christian because we don't yet know if you are going to lose your faith.
At the moment, your faith status is more or less what mine was in 1980, 1985, 1990, 1995, 2000. In those years you would have accepted me as your Christian brother and witnessed my Christian life. Just as I would, if I were still a Christian, accept you as my Christian brother and witness your Christian life (in so far as geography would allow).
You cannot reach back into the history of my life and change the realities that there were back then.
12 Dec 16
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999You are the one claiming that people can be saved only by works. This means you are simply ignoring all the verses that explicitly claim that we are not saved by works.
I notice that you continue to quote Epheisans 2 and ignore what Paul said in Ephesians 5 .. I think that says it all.. good luck to you.
Quote the exact verse in Ephesians 5 that you think supports your view. Also quote a verse that contradicts my view that good works is a natural outworking of true faith.
12 Dec 16
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFActually you are the one who is evasive as soon as I ask you questions intended to establish whether or not you are telling the truth about your past faith being genuine but that is beside the point. I have never said that you were never a Christian. The Bible says that he who perseveres till the end will be saved, so if you are currently persevering then you should have the knowledge that you are currently saved. Obviously if you give up along the way that no longer applies. But I still fail to see how any of this has anything to do with the question you were responding to. Would you care to tell me why you think your reply was in any way relevant to the question I was asking Rajk?
I'll try again. I am talking about the claim YOU made about whether or not I used to be a Christian. I have never claimed that I wasn't a real Christian. It is YOU who has made this claim. And the logic is being applied to your claim to be a Christian, and you have become evasive. I'll try again.
I was, by any definition, a real life, walking, talking, prayin ...[text shortened]... annot reach back into the history of my life and change the realities that there were back then.
12 Dec 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkThe correct interpretation of the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles cannot come from ONE VERSE. You are a one verse Christian. Read the whole thing to get the whole story, otherwise you will be constantly misled by false churches.
You are the one claiming that people can be saved only by works. This means you are simply ignoring all the verses that explicitly claim that we are not saved by works.
Quote the exact verse in Ephesians 5 that you think supports your view. Also quote a verse that contradicts my view that good works is a natural outworking of true faith.
12 Dec 16
Originally posted by Rajk9991. Are you saying there is only one verse that states we are not saved by works?
The correct interpretation of the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles cannot come from ONE VERSE. You are a one verse Christian. Read the whole thing to get the whole story, otherwise you will be constantly misled by false churches.
2. If there were more verses stating we are not saved by works would you believe it?
3. You have not even quoted one verse that supports your view that someone can be saved by works that is devoid of faith. So your view is currently not based on any verse at all as far as I am concerned.
12 Dec 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkYou don't remember insisting that i was never a real Christian because a real Christian couldn't lose their faith?
Actually you are the one who is evasive as soon as I ask you questions intended to establish whether or not you are telling the truth about your past faith being genuine but that is beside the point. I have never said that you were never a Christian. The Bible says that he who perseveres till the end will be saved, so if you are currently persevering the ...[text shortened]... dge that you are currently saved. Obviously if you give up along the way that no longer applies.
12 Dec 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI was responding to you suggesting that someone who is "saved" cannot be thrown into the lake of fire. You presumably believe that someone who loses their faith can no longer say that ARE "saved"?
But I still fail to see how any of this has anything to do with the question you were responding to. Would you care to tell me why you think your reply was in any way relevant to the question I was asking Rajk?
12 Dec 16
Originally posted by FMFYou obviously to not believe that a real Christian cannot lose their faith, so we obviously have differing perspectives of what a 'real Christian' is. I would say there is support for my view in the scriptures, but if you disagree and feel the Bible says that a true child of God can lose their faith and hence their salvation feel free to share those scriptures.
You don't remember insisting that i was never a real Christian because a real Christian couldn't lose their faith?