Can you obey someone you have not met?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Yes, they were saved from the condemnation of sin by the death of Christ. But Christ did not accept them into the Kingdom of God.

You like Ephesians? Read this:

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling sav ...[text shortened]... NTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

SAVED DOES NOT MEAN AUTOMATIC ENTRY INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD.[/b]

What in your view is the 'condemnation of sin' that they are supposedly saved from?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
What in your view is the 'condemnation of sin' that they are supposedly saved from?

No ... Paul in Ephesians 2 told the Christian saints they are saved by grace and not by works. Then he tells the same group that they MUST LIVE RIGHTEOUSLY AND KEEP THEMSELVES FREE FROM SIN OTHERWISE THEY WILL NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

So we have the same group of saints who according to you they are saved by grace and that means they will get eternal life.

BUT PAUL NEVER SAYS THAT

Paul says they must first life holy righteous lives free from sin otherwise NO ETERNAL LIFE.

Clearly YOU ARE NOT UNDERSTANDING PAUL

Originally posted by Rajk999
No ... Paul in Ephesians 2 told the Christian saints they are saved by grace and not by works. Then he tells the same group that they MUST LIVE RIGHTEOUSLY AND KEEP THEMSELVES FREE FROM SIN OTHERWISE THEY WILL NOT ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

So we have the same group of saints who according to you they are saved by grace and that means they will get eternal ...[text shortened]... ghteous lives free from sin otherwise NO ETERNAL LIFE.

Clearly YOU ARE NOT UNDERSTANDING PAUL

Read my question again, you have not answered it. If everyone is saved from the condemnation of sin, why are some cast into the lake of fire?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Read my question again, you have not answered it. If everyone is saved from the condemnation of sin, why are some cast into the lake of fire?

Read my question again. You are not understanding Paul and twisting what he says.

Saved by Grace IS NOT A GUARANTEE OF ETERNAL LIFE.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Read my question again. You are not understanding Paul and twisting what he says.

Saved by Grace IS NOT A GUARANTEE OF ETERNAL LIFE.

If you get to heaven you are saved. If you end up in hell you are not.

That's the way most people see it.

Originally posted by Eladar
If you get to heaven you are saved. If you end up in hell you are not.

That's the way most people see it.

I got that. But thats not what the discussion is about.

Apparently FMJ believes that Paul is saying that if you are saved by grace through faith then you will get eternal life. Hence he equates saved with eternal life.

But Paul warns Christian saints that even though they are saved by grace, they still need to live righteously and do good works otherwise they will not get eternal life.

So Clearly Christians are misunderstanding Paul.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I got that. But thats not what the discussion is about.

Apparently FMJ believes that Paul is saying that if you are saved by grace through faith then you will get eternal life. Hence he equates saved with eternal life.

But Paul warns Christian saints that even though they are saved by grace, they still need to live righteously and do good works otherwise they will not get eternal life.

So Clearly Christians are misunderstanding Paul.

I think people quibble over fruits of the spirit and working your way to heaven. He seems to have been on both sides of the issue with me.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I got that. But thats not what the discussion is about.

Apparently FMJ believes that Paul is saying that if you are saved by grace through faith then you will get eternal life. Hence he equates saved with eternal life.

But Paul warns Christian saints that even though they are saved by grace, they still need to live righteously and do good works otherwise they will not get eternal life.

So Clearly Christians are misunderstanding Paul.

And you equate 'being saved by grace' with being 'thrown into the lake of fire'. It seems you are the one who is confused. Where does your Bible say that someone who is saved can be thrown into the lake of fire?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Where does your Bible say that someone who is saved can be thrown into the lake of fire?

But don't you believe that nobody can know they are "saved" until they die... when they will find themselves either "saved" ~ or ~ "thrown into the lake of fire"?

Originally posted by Rajk999
I got that. But thats not what the discussion is about.

Apparently FMJ believes that Paul is saying that if you are saved by grace through faith then you will get eternal life. Hence he equates saved with eternal life.

But Paul warns Christian saints that even though they are saved by grace, they still need to live righteously and do good works otherwise they will not get eternal life.

So Clearly Christians are misunderstanding Paul.

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:27-28).

Originally posted by FMF
But don't you believe that nobody can know they are "saved" until they die... when they will find themselves either "saved" ~ or ~ "thrown into the lake of fire"?

1. What gave you that impression?

2. What does that have to do with the question I asked Rajk?

FMF: But don't you believe that nobody can know they are "saved" until they die... when they will find themselves either "saved" ~ or ~ "thrown into the lake of fire"?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
1. What gave you that impression?

You conceded that we cannot know if any self-identified Christian's faith in Christ is genuine or real until they die having not lost that faith. So, it follows that no self-identified Christian can know that they are "saved" during their lifetime.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
2. What does that have to do with the question I asked Rajk?

Make of it what you want. Or don't. It's up to you. If you think it's irrelevant, then so be it.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." (John 10:27-28).

Simple:

All of mankind is saved by grace
Not all are Christs sheep.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
And you equate 'being saved by grace' with being 'thrown into the lake of fire'. It seems you are the one who is confused. Where does your Bible say that someone who is saved can be thrown into the lake of fire?

Saved by Grace just means that God has done His part.
Paul said that there is another part - that of living righteously and refraining from sin.
Failure to do that means that there will be no eternal life.

Some will succeed and get into the Kingdom of God
Some will not and they will be punished.