Originally posted by checkbaiter
First of all brother, no, I know being "saved" is only the beginning. I was born again in 1974. Now to Elohim...
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (KJV)
The word “God” is Elohim, which is itself a plural form and, like most other words, has more than one definition. In this I agree... It is used in a plural sense o ...[text shortened]... nt the conclusion that the Hebrew word Elohim inherently contains the idea of a compound nature.
checkbaiter,
My responses, as I warned, are probably going to be made to lean towards my intended topic points.
First of all brother, no, I know being "saved" is only the beginning. I was born again in 1974. Now to Elohim...
You've been a Christian for a fair amount of time. Good.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (KJV)
The word “God” is Elohim, which is itself a plural form and, like most other words, has more than one definition. In this I agree... It is used in a plural sense of “gods” or “men with authority,” and in a singular sense for “God,” “god,” or “a man with authority, such as a judge.”
Since the subject matter in Genesis 1:1 is the creation of all things, including men, we may reasonably rule out that "men of authority" should be understood. Men have not been created yet in Genesis 1:1.
The Hebrew lexicon by Brown, Driver and Briggs, considered to be one of the best available, has as its first usage for Elohim: “rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power, divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels, gods.”
Unless angels assisted God in creation, we may rule out angels as being part of the Elohim. Hebrews says God
"Who [God] makes His angels winds ... etc" (Heb. 1:7 quoting Psalm 104:7) we can probably rule out the angels whom it says God has made.
The other reason we can rule out the angels as intended in Genesis 1:1 is that God spread out the earth and stretched out the heavens
"alone" and asks rhetorically
"Who was with Me?" (Isa. 44:24)
"Thus says Jehovah who redeemed you ... I am Jehovah who makes all things, Who alone stretches out the heavens, Who spread out the earth (Who was with Me?)" (See Isa. 44:24)
Since Jehovah God knows of no one else, including angels, who accompanied Him to create all things -
"In the beginning God [Elohim] created the heavens and the earth" can be safely understood to not include angels in carrying out of that act.
We are still stuck with the Triune God as the most likely candidate.
Elohim is translated “gods” in many verses. Genesis 35:2 reads, “Get rid of all the foreign gods you have with you,” and Exodus 18:11 says, “Now I know that the Lord is greater than all other gods.”
We may safely comprehend that Elohim in Genesis 1:1 does not refer to any other gods, ie. fallen angels or demons masquerading as "gods".
Isaiah 44:8 -
"Is there a God besides Me? Or is there any other Rock? I do not know of any ."
God knows of no other God besides Him. So Elohim's plurality in Genesis 1:1 cannot imply other gods real or counterfeit.
John 1:1 has the Word with God and was God. And the Word became flesh in verse 14 - the Son of God - the Son of Man. Since
"He as in the beginning with God" (John 1:2) and WAS God too
(v.1) we have God and His Word Who became flesh as best candidates to compose the
Elohim Who created the heavens and earth in Genesis 1:1.
In fact concerning this Word -
"All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one things came into being which has come into being." (v.3)
The Triune God is the best interpretation of Elohim in Genesis 1:1. Extra judges, extra angels, extra men, extra angels are all ruled out.
It is translated “judges” in Exodus 21:6; 22:8 and 9. It is translated “angels” (KJV) or “heavenly beings” (NIV) in Psalm 8:5. That is its plural use, and there is no evidence that anyone thought of these “gods” as having some kind of plurality of persons within themselves.
In creation all others besides God Himself alone are ruled out as comprising Elohim. And in the great commission the saved are not told to be baptized into the Name of any angels, other deities, various judges, other gods, etc. The one Name into which believers are to be plunged is
Father - Son - Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19) .
The Creator is best understood as the Triune God. And the divine life into which believers are to be immersed is best understood as the Triune God - His singular NAME -
"the Father - the Son - the Holy Spirit".
Elohim is also translated as the singular “god” or “judge,” and there is no hint of any “compound nature” when it is translated that way.
The Word was with God and the Word became something that the Word was not before - flesh
(John 1:1, 14). So some compounding has to be understood unless you reject the incarnation of God as a man.
The Moslem and the Orthodox Jew would argue that God has never become a man, along with the Jehovah's Witness of course. But as a Christian -
"the Word (Who was with and WAS God)
became flesh [b](John 1:14) .
Limited as human language is, to say that human nature was "compounded" with the uncreated eternal God in incarnation is reasonable, if not completely without potential misunderstanding.
If you believe as I do that
"the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us ..." (John 1:14) then you should believe that God
"BECAME" something. And this becomming could conceivably be refered to as a compounding. What He did not have before He took upon Himself.
Humanity is an item of creation -
"God created man ..." (Genesis 1:27) . So what was uncreated and eternal compounded around Himself an item of His creation. He became a man. And "compounding" could be used to express this mysterious action of incarnation.
An example is Exodus 22:20, which reads, “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the lord must be destroyed.” Another example is Judges 6:31: “If Baal really is a god, he can defend himself when someone breaks down his altar.” In Exodus 7:1, God says that He has made Moses a “god” (Elohim) to Pharaoh. Again, in Judges 11:24, the pagan god Chemosh is called Elohim, and in 1 Samuel 5:7, the pagan god Dagon is called Elohim,
Surely you agree that Baal and Dagon can be ruled out as candidates for God/s referred to as Elohim in Genesis 1:1.
yet Christians do not conclude that those gods were somehow composite or “uniplural,” or that the people who worshipped them thought they were.
The point of the stories you referred really should be enough to distinguish our God from those in competition with Him such as Baal and Dagon. In fact laboring to see how we might compare the true God with these demons is really a rather worthless waste of time.
The idols whom the nations sacrificed to were demons.
Deuteronomy 32:17 - "They sacrificed to demons, to those who were no god, To gods they did not know."
Why should there even be a question in comparing the Elohim of Genesis 1:1 with demons ? It should be out of the question that some comparison should be sought between the one God we know as the true God with demons.
Exactly how to translate Elohim in 1 Samuel 2:25 has been debated by scholars. The question is whether Elohim in the verse refers to a human judge or to God. The KJV says “judge.” The versions are divided between them, some translating Elohim as a man,
We may rule out a man as being party to Elohim's creating of the heavens and the earth.
others as God Himself. The fact that the scholars and translators debate about whether the word Elohim refers to a man or God shows vividly that the word itself does not have any inherent idea of a plurality of persons.
I think the Christian should labor to understand rather than labor to misunderstand.
I don't think we should labor to see how easily we may apply triunity to Baal or Dagon or demons or angels. I don't think we should waste time seeing if we can insert any of these into Elohim in the opening introduction to Him in Genesis 1:1.
As we go through the whole revelation of the Bible it is, however, reasonable to pick up that the Word - the Son of God is included in Elohim and the Holy Spirit is included.
I think you are arguing "How easily can I misunderstand?"
I think that is the wrong way of going about ascertaining in light of the whole Bible - Who Elohim is to the saved.
If it did, it could not be translated as “god” when referring to a pagan god, or as “judge” when referring to a man. The evidence in Scripture does not warrant the conclusion that the Hebrew word Elohim inherently contains the idea of a compound nature.
It is far more likely that Genesis 1:1's Elohim is Father - Son - Holy Spirit than it is that we should understand "man, demons, foreign gods, Baal, Dagon, angels ... etc."
29 Sep '13 19:08
Christ and divine life in Genesis
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