01 Oct 13
2 edits
Originally posted by divegeesterWell clearly the same way you read these threads is the same way you read the Bible .. you just cannot read.
No you quote one verse, bottom of page 2.
I'll be frank with you I find your accusations of apostasy a little offensive. I think you are presenting yourself as quite puffed up and self righteous in your opinion and your works (whatever they are, and im not interested so dont bother bragging about them) which is your business until you start accusing other Christians of apostasy.
I quoted one at the bottom of page 2 and two at the top of page 3.
Read and understand is very good advice for this forum and for the Bible.
You can be divegeester or frank .. I dont really care. neither do I care about you being offended. Thats tough. Read your blooming Bible and then come to these forums pal.
As for me bragging about works. I have done no such thing and you well know that .. you are a pretentious liar. I have always said that I dont tell neither do I ask about good works.
Not telling and not asking has nothing however to do with the commandment to DO GOOD WORKS AS A REQUIREMENT FOR ETERNAL LIFE.
Stating what Christ said is not selfrighteousness. Selfrighteousness is thinking that you are more righteous than another person. Since I have not said anything about my own righteousness then you cannot know whether I am or not.
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01 Oct 13
Originally posted by Rajk999Ok that's enough, you are way to aggressive, judgemental and accusatory of other christians for me. I'll let sonship fight his own battles with you.
Well clearly the same way you read these threads is the same way you read the Bible .. you just cannot read.
I quoted one at the bottom of page 2 and two at the top of page 3.
Read and understand is very good advice for this forum and for the Bible.
You can be divegeester or frank .. I dont really care. neither do I care about you being offended. T ...[text shortened]... ce I have not said anything about my own righteousness then you cannot know whether I am or not.
01 Oct 13
Originally posted by Rajk999You have never seen me say that or anything close it, but feel free to look
And the way you phrase it it sounds fine. But if you say that you are saved once you accept Christ with your mouth and after that you cannot lose your salvation then thats total nonsense.
for anything you believe I did say that means that.
Kelly
01 Oct 13
Originally posted by Rajk999For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
Whereas I accept that both passages are correct ie that there is justification by faith AND justification by works ..
You on the other hand believe in justification by faith only.
If you read Romans 5 Paul goes into great lengths to explain what he means by justification by faith. Paul certainly does not imply that all you have to do is to claim you h ...[text shortened]... can you get eternal life.
Faith with your mouth = damnation
Faith and works = eternal life.
(Ephesians 2:8-9 NIV)
One is SAVED by the grace of God, because of his FAITH. One is NOT SAVED because of his WORKS. Any good WORKS done WITHOUT having FAITH does not justify man before God. One must have faith first. Doing good works is evidence for one's faith as James was pointing out.
As you said, Paul is mainly explaining how Gentiles can be justified before God without doing the works of the law of Moses. Abraham was justified before God because he believed God and had the faith to follow God's instructions. Abraham was justified by his faith and not any good work he did. As Paul pointed out if it were by good works only, we could boast about what good works we had done.
I believe James was not concerned with the works of the law, but with doing good works to help others due to a change of heart because of one's faith in Christ. Just expressing concern for the welfare of others with your mouth or by praying for them did not really show your belief and faith in Christ. Showing compassion by doing good works like feeding the hungry and caring for the needy is evidence that you believe and have faith in Christ. James said something like - I show my faith by my works.
The Instructor
01 Oct 13
Originally posted by divegeesterThats very good. Let Jaywill and sonship fight their own battle. I have no beef with you and I never said you are apostate.
Ok that's enough, you are way to aggressive, judgemental and accusatory of other christians for me. I'll let sonship fight his own battles with you.
01 Oct 13
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayI did not mean to imply 'you' said that. That 'you' meant Christians in general. And you are right. you yourself never said that.
You have never seen me say that or anything close it, but feel free to look
for anything you believe I did say that means that.
Kelly
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01 Oct 13
7 edits
Rajk999,
I will point out that there are a couple verses that seems to answer your question:
So you cannot use my usage of the phrase "Triune God" to pretend that you didn't understand my question.
The question basically was - "Do you think eternal damnation is God's answer to the Christian who has any problems in obedience or spiritual growth?"
I think you understand the question. Now you refer me to Hebrews 6:4-6.
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
Where in that sentence is the fact of eternal damnation ?
If the Apostle Paul said that some Christians would lose their reward but be saved yet as through fire (1 Cor. 3:14,15) why do I have to undersand the warning of Hebrews 6:4-6 can only mean a Christian is unsaved and suffers eternal damnation ?
Look at the Corinthian warning - "If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward; If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)
I can clearly see that the writer of the book of Hebrews is speaking of the suffering of loss to the one who - " tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, ". Why do I have to assume the only suffering of loss to the Christian has to be the revocation of eternal redemption for the suffering of eternal damnation ?
Why can we not understand that the warning to this condition in Hebrews 6:4-6 means the loss of reward yet being saved as through fire ?
You have to demonstrate that eternal perdition is the only possible meaning to the discipline warned against in Hebrews 6:4-6.
Why can there not be other matters to fear from our God, as Christians, besides the suffering of eternal perdition ?
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Hebrews 10:38-39 KJV)
I'll comment on this passage separately.
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01 Oct 13
Rajk999,
To attempt to prove that eternal damnation is God's answer to any and all problems of lack of obedience to a man once having become a Christian you refer me also to Hebrews 10:38-39.
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Hebrews 10:38-39 KJV)
I think the punishment that is being referred to was previously elaborated upon in the same chapter in verses 27 through 31. Let's go through the details of each sentence:
Verse 27 - " ... a certain fearful expectation of judgment and fervor of fire, which is to consume the adversaries."
In First Corinthians 3:14,15 Paul warns that some Christains will lose their reward, BUT be saved, "yet so as through fire".
Could such a Christian experiencing that discipline - have "a fearful expectation of judgment and fervor of fire" ? Could such a Christian feel like one of God's adversaries during that time ?
I say, definitely yes. Yet he though he suffers loss he is still "saved, yet so as through fire." [b]Hebrews 10:27 does not have to mean eternal perdition.
Verse 28 - "Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without compassion on the testimony of two or three witnesses. By how much more do you think he will be thought worthy of worse punishment who has trampled underfoot the Son of God and has considered the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing and has insulted the Spirit of grace ?"
To the resurrected believer who loses his reward and suffers some loss, could he feel that he is undergoing a worse punishment than having died ? I mean he is brought before the judgment seat of Christ and suffers loss (and that after death and resurrection). That's not good.
Yet he is still saved yet as through fire according to the apostle.
Could such a one have backslidden so badly that he "trampled underfoot the Son of God"? I think some cases may be that severe. Yet, though he suffers loss he is still saved, yet so as through fire.
Can such a one realize before the judgment seat of Christ that his backslidden condition insulted the Spirit of grace ? Can he realize that his negligence to Christian maturity considered the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified as a common thing?
I think "Yes" is the answer to all these unfortunate consequences. None of this insists that eternal damnation is the only result of his being defeated.
"If anyone's work us consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:15)
That is general enough to include a wide scope of possible unpleasant experiences. Could those experiences also include a fearful realization - "Vengence is Mine; I will repay;" ? I think the feeling of vengence from our Father can be felt without eternal perdition being the only manner in which it is dispensed.
Verse 30 - "The Lord will judge His people"
Clearly, in the Corinthian passage it is the Lord's people who are before the judgment seat of Christ being judged. And some will suffer loss, but they themselves will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Verse 31 - "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God"
For the one who suffers loss before the judgment seat of Christ - could he have the feeling that it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God ? I think definitely he could have such a dreadful feeling.
Regardless, "he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
So nothing in the previously described discipline mentioned in Hebrews 10:27-31 necessarily has to be interpreted as eternal punishment. No doubt punishment is indicated. Nothing insists that it HAS to be eternal punishment when compared to the warning of First Corinthians 3:14,15)
The wideness of the SCOPE of the warning - "he will suffer loss ..." may include more than we expect. God will judge "His people" with the latitude and scope He deems is appropriate. We do not know how many possibilities that such discipline could include short of eternal damnation.
We are just generally warned - "he will SUFFER LOSS, but HE HIMSELF will be SAVED, yet so as through fire."
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01 Oct 13
Rajk999,
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
(Hebrews 10:38-39 KJV)
The word there in the KJV "perdition" is strong. And one might make the case that it is used to indicate eternal perdition.
We see aploeia used in John 17:20 - "the son of perdition",
Phil. 1:28; Second Thess. 2:3 "son of perdition" again; Second Peter 3:7; Revelation 17:8,11.
I could conceive of someone arguing that in Hebrews 10:39 is should be eternal punishement.
However, by definition, the Greek word could also be translated as ruin or loss. That could be spiritual or physical. It could be translated as destruction or die.
The Christian before the judgment seat of Christ who suffers loss suffers a kind of destruction of his soul yet he is still saved yet so as through fire.
It is a strong word. But I do not think it insists that eternal punishment is the only possible interpretation in verse 39.
Going back to the Corinthian passage notice that Paul strongly implies that the backslidden one is in some sense destrpoyed as to his psychological part (1 Cor. 3:17).
Sonship asked:
"Where in that sentence is the fact of eternal damnation ?"
And the sentence reads:
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, .. to renew them again unto repentance;..
(Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
Obviously sonship does not understand what 'impossible' means.
But Paul is understanding of stupid people and those who try to twist the Bible. So he repeats it in a different way a couple verses down and likens those who are unworthy of eternal life as thorns that will be rejected and burned:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
So Jaywill, you go ahead and preach your false doctrine that all who accepts Christ with their mouth will be eternally saved. Those who can read and understand know better.
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02 Oct 13
9 edits
Rajk999 writes
"Where in that sentence is the fact of eternal damnation ?"
And the sentence reads:
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, .. to renew them again unto repentance;..
(Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV)
Obviously sonship does not understand what 'impossible' means.
The following verses 7 and 8 read this as a further explanation of the situation -
"For the earth, which drinks the rain which often comes upon it and produces vegetation suitable to those who whose sake also it is cultivated, partakes of blessing from God.
But if it brings forth thorns and thistles, it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end is to be burned." (Heb. 6:7,8)
The burning of the thorns and thistles as disapproved fruit corresponds to the burning of the worthless building materials of wood, grass, and stubble in the building of the church in First Corinthians 3:12-15.
"For another foundation no one is able to lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
But if anyone builds upon the foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, stubble, the WORK of each will become manifested; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by FIRE, and the fire itself will prove each one's WORK, of what sort it is.
If anyone's WORK which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;
If anyone's WORK is consumed, he will suffer loss, BUT he himself WILL BE SAVED, yet so as through fire."
The burning of the thorns and thistles in Hebrews 6:8 as unprofitable vegetation corresponds to the burning up of the unprofitable WORKS symbolized by "wood, grass, stubble" in First Cor. 3:12.
Since the one is saved yet so as through fire he is not taken completely off the foundation which is Jesus Christ. This corresponds to the ground not being burned but only the thorns and thistles. It is not cursed. It is only "NEAR ... a curse".
Rajk999, embraces a false doctrine that the only remedy Jesus Christ has for Christians is to revoke eternal redemption and send them to damnation.
Now to the word "impossible" . A number of things are impossible with man but are possible with God. The impossible here seems to related to "renew themselves".
The RcV reads - "For it is impossible ... and yet have fallen away, to renew themselves again unto repentance ..." .
If the leading disciple - Peter, could deny the Lord three times and even with cursing, we may rest that he was an example of a backslidden one finding his way back in repentance.
We have to remember that it was JESUS who said that He would PRAY for Peter. And Jesus said that after his deep failure he should turn and strengthen his brothers -
Luke 22:31,32,33 - "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has asked to have you all to sift you as wheat. But I have made petition concerning you that your faith would not fail; and you, once you have turned again, establish your brothers.
And he said to Him, Lord, I am ready to go with You both to prison and to death."
We all know that Simon Peter, arguably the leading of the twelve disciples, could not live up to his own ambition to be faithful. But it was not up to him in the end. Jesus PRAYED for him. And the denier repented and resumed His discipleship eventually.
With man things are impossible. With God all things are possible. And the same writer of Hebrews says that Jesus the High Priest Savior is able to save us to the uttermost simply because He intercedes for His people perpetually -
"But He [Christ], because He abides forever, has His priesthood unalterable. Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since He lives always to intercede for them." (Hebrews 7:24,25)
None of this is intended to convey there are no serious consequences in drawing back from following the Lord Jesus in the next age.
Rajk999 has a false teaching that once redeemed eternally God will revoke the GIFT of eternal life. Rajk999's answer for all Christian problems is the loss of eternal redemption and eternal life.
But Paul is understanding of stupid people and those who try to twist the Bible. So he repeats it in a different way a couple verses down and likens those who are unworthy of eternal life as thorns that will be rejected and burned:
It is the vegetation of thorns and thistles which are burned and not the ground. And it says that a curse is "NEAR," not CURSED.
"But if it brings forth thorns and thistles, it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end is to be burned." (Heb 6:8)
Damnation is to be CURSED (Matt. 25:41).
Discipline during the millennial kingdom for some will be to be "NEAR ... a curse.". Rajk999's own English version states the same -
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
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03 Oct 13
2 edits
Back to the subject of the OP.
God's purpose in restoration and further creation is life. He does what He does there is Genesis 1 and 2 for the bringing about of life.
Three matters are seen early in the chapter -
1.) The brooding of the Spirit of God
2.) The shining of the light from God
3.) The speaking of the word of God
All three are for the purpose of producing LIFE.
First the Spirit was brooding over the face of the death waters. This brooding should remind us of a mother hen or mother bird brooding over her nest. Why? She is trying to bring forth life.
In spiritual experience first the Holy Spirit of God has to brood over your heart. There is darkness and deadness in men who do not know God. The Spirit broods over the heart. He may let us know how empty and dead we feel within.
Then the Word of God comes to us. Christ is the Word of God. He is the Word that was with God and was God in the beginning. Jesus bothers us because God wants us to have divine life. The brooding Spirit should lead us to the Word of God. The Word of God desires that we would receive the life of God - the eternal life.
Then the light of God shines into our hearts. The shining of God as light into a person's heart is also that they may have divine life. To have divine life is the have God as a living Person. God seeks to give God to us subjectively and personally. God seeks to impart Himself into us to live in union with us.
So we start with the brooding Spirit -
" ... and the Spirit of God was brooding upon the surface of the waters." (v.2b)
Then we have the Word of God
"And God said, ... " (v.3)
Then we have the light of God -
" Let there be light and there was light." (v.3)
It is all for the purpose of life. Life is the focus of Genesis 1 and 2. And in spiritual experience this is good picture of God's process to impart the divine life into the deadened, ruined, darkened inner being of fallen man.
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04 Oct 13
Back to the OP
The land comes up on the third day. That's a symbol of Jesus rising from the dead on the third day.
Only after the land rises (v.9)do we see the lowest level of life in three stages - the grass, the herbs, the fruit trees (v.11).
This is the life without consciousness. This is the lowest level of life.
It means that when we are born again our experience of Christ as life is rather imperceptible and unconscious to begin with. But life grows. And Christ grows within us.
I never worry about people reading some of these discussions and not becoming believers. For some people may read and without realizing it, one day their heart will open up just a little bit. And Christ who is so willing to meet a man or woman where they are, may come into them and cause them imperceptibly to be born of God - born anew.
Then the lowest unconscious level of life with sprout up in their inner being. These things have happened to us followers of Jesus. It starts with Jesus rising from the dead.
"And God said, Let the earth sprout grass, herbs yeilding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit according to their kind with their seed in them upon the earth; and it was so." (Gen. 1:11)