Christ is all the "things"

Originally posted by sonship
* 2 edits *

If you want to shut your Christian brother Rajk999 up so that you can just say whatever you want, unchallenged, have you tried likening him to a holocaust denier? That might work for you.

Originally posted by FMF
If you want to shut your Christian brother Rajk999 up so that you can just say whatever you want, unchallenged, have you tried likening him to a holocaust denier? That might work for you.

Most of what he says deserves to be deleted 😀

This paragraph from Witness Lee's Life Study of Romans Message # 53 is very good to show in Christ are all the things needed for salvation. It is not adjustment or correction which avails but Christ Himself terminating and uplifting with Himself the believer.

From http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

NOT CORRECTION BUT RESURRECTION

On the one hand, to be resurrected means to put everything negative to death; on the other hand, it means to release all the positive things, to uplift what has been put to death and resurrected. Strictly speaking, in God’s economy there is no outward correction, adjustment, or improvement. There is only resurrection, which is the termination of the negative and the release of the positive.

Suppose a certain brother is very proud. The religious way is to teach him to be humble. But this is not God’s way. The way according to the divine economy is to graft this proud man into Christ and to allow the death of Christ to work within him and, eventually, to terminate him. The death of Christ will then open the way for His resurrection power to release something of Christ from within this brother. In this way the life of Christ will swallow up his proud nature. This is not correction; it is resurrection.

In the early years of my ministry, it was my habit to correct and adjust others. But I gradually learned that this is not God’s way in His economy. Because we have the Spirit of holiness within us, there is no need for outward adjustment. If we turn to the Lord and contact Him, we shall experience His death and resurrection. This resurrection is according to the Spirit of holiness. Hallelujah, the resurrection life with the resurrection power is within us!

How absurd it would be to try to help a flower grow by correcting it outwardly! The proper way is simply to water the plant. In the same principle, we should water one another. As 1 Corinthians 3:6 says, Paul planted and Apollos watered, but God gives the growth. We need to water the brothers and sisters and to nourish them. Then the inner life will grow, and eventually a beautiful “flower” will be brought forth. This is resurrection.

In a very real sense, God’s children do not need to know so much doctrine. What we need is the Word and the power of resurrection within us. No teaching or doctrine can replace resurrection. According to the power of resurrection we are being designated the sons of God.

Originally posted by sonship
This paragraph from Witness Lee's [b]Life Study of Romans Message # 53 is very good to show in Christ are all the things needed for salvation. It is not adjustment or correction which avails but Christ Himself terminating and uplifting with Himself the believer.

From http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?n

NOT CORRECTION BUT RE ...[text shortened]... ection. According to the power of resurrection we are being designated the sons of God.

Some flowers such as clematis need a trellis in order to grow and you are here advocating a policy which proposes to do nothing to help a man readjust his life and bring it into harmony with Gods will. Do you understand how reprehensible this is? I doubt it. Is it any wonder that the churches of Christendom are failing and remain is a state of spiritual decline? Heed the words of the Apostle!

Brothers, even if a man takes a false step before he is aware of it, you who have spiritual qualifications try to readjust such a man in a spirit of mildness. Galatians 1:6

True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but it is painful yet afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Therefore, strengthen the hands that hang down and the feeble knees, and keep making straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but, rather, may be healed. - Hebrews 12: 11-13

What have you to say for yourself now?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Some flowers such as clematis need a trellis in order to grow and you are here advocating a policy which proposes to do nothing to help a man readjust his life and bring it into harmony with Gods will. Do you understand how reprehensible this is? I doubt it. Is it any wonder that the churches of Christendom are failing and remain is a state of spir ...[text shortened]... joint but, rather, may be healed. - Hebrews 12: 11-13

What have you to say for yourself now?

Good point but like all good points made by the teachings of Christ and they Apostles, they cannot penetrate the thick layer of indoctrination created the Lee / Nee.

The Lee / Nee solution to misdemeanors in the church is the doctrine of "talk and think" [copyright FMF]. If one just talk about Christ and think about Christ, these problems are solved.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Good point but like all good points made by the teachings of Christ and they Apostles, they cannot penetrate the thick layer of indoctrination created the Lee / Nee.

The Lee / Nee solution to misdemeanors in the church is the doctrine of "talk and think" [copyright FMF]. If one just talk about Christ and think about Christ, these problems are solved.

These teachings are immensely harmful because they justify abrogating responsibility for looking after the congregation. If sonship has even a semblance of spiritual sense he will realise this and reject them as being anti Biblical. The idea that we grow spiritually from inside is fine but it does not and cannot absolve us of the responsibility to help erring ones readjust themselves in a spirit of mildness. Does a shepherd really let the sheep wander here and there and never gathers them in for safekeeping and inspection?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
These teachings are immensely harmful because they justify abrogating responsibility for looking after the congregation. If sonship has even a semblance of spiritual sense he will realise this and reject them as being anti Biblical. The idea that we grow spiritually from inside is fine but it does not and cannot absolve us of the responsibility to ...[text shortened]... ly let the sheep wander here and there and never gathers them in for safekeeping and inspection?

That is correct. But it is worse than that because at a personal level the individual himself seems be taught that there is no real free will and it is God / Christ that is responsible for removing evil and sin from their life and making sure that they do not wander back to their old ways. If the individual continues in sin then they seem to have to right o blame God. This is a dangerous doctrine to preach and completely contrary to the Bible.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
These teachings are immensely harmful because they justify abrogating responsibility for looking after the congregation. If sonship has even a semblance of spiritual sense he will realise this and reject them as being anti Biblical. The idea that we grow spiritually from inside is fine but it does not and cannot absolve us of the responsibility to ...[text shortened]... ly let the sheep wander here and there and never gathers them in for safekeeping and inspection?

I wrote a number of things about Paul saying he set an example by laboring to "present every man full-grown in Christ" (Col. 1:28).

If I was advocating abrogating responsibility or not helping erring fellow Christians I would not have done that.

Originally posted by sonship
I wrote a number of things about Paul saying he set an example by laboring to [b]"present every man full-grown in Christ" (Col. 1:28).

If I was advocating abrogating responsibility or not helping erring fellow Christians I would not have done that.[/b]

You are such a liar. Here is what you said.

Suppose a certain brother is very proud. The religious way is to teach him to be humble. But this is not God’s way. The way according to the divine economy is to graft this proud man into Christ and to allow the death of Christ to work within him and, eventually, to terminate him. The death of Christ will then open the way for His resurrection power to release something of Christ from within this brother. In this way the life of Christ will swallow up his proud nature. This is not correction; it is resurrection.

I will summarise:
- If a fellow Christians lives in error
- Do not teach or correct fellow Christians.
- Let them pray and God will correct their error.

That is advocating abrogating responsibility and not helping. It is no wonder Christianity if full of sin and worldiness. Many are taught that their sin and evil is Gods problem ... not theirs.

There has been some criticism about "mere" thinking and "mere" speaking.

In "Romans 10" SPEAKING releases grace and power from God for LIVING. And speaking in faith is not as despised and poo-pooed as a couple of posters want to show contempt for speaking.

Notice:

But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart," that is the word of faith which we proclaim,

That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart ... etc. (Rom. 10:8,9a)

What is IN the heart and what is IN the mouth is of importance to God and His apostle.

The unbelief of Rajk999, Robbie and the "Don't Just Speak" crowd stems from their not understanding that behind God's promises is God and God's power. They reason without God being included. So they deem speaking and believing in the heart to be VAIN matters.

However we could spend a few days easily on how in the Bible speaking and believing in the heart unleashed God's enabling to live and serve Him overcomingly.

The overcomers in Revelation 12 not only overcome by "the blood of the Lamb" and not only by not loving "their souls life even unto death". But they ALSO over come the Devil victoriously by "the WORD ... of their testimony". That means their proclamation of the divine FACTS of this universe as they relate to God's salvation.

So, Paul emphasizes the SPEAKING in the mouth and the BELIEVING in the heart, not as vain activities, but as the levers to release life power from the faithful God.

But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that is, the word of faith which we proclaim."

Originally posted by sonship
However we could spend a few days easily on how in the Bible speaking and believing in the heart unleashed God's enabling to live and serve Him overcomingly.

Do Christians who can do the speaking and believing in the heart bit pretty well but who don't actually manage to do the "unleashed God's enabling to live and serve Him overcomingly" thing so well, if at all, if that bit doesn't happen, do they get tortured (forever) or will the "speaking and believing" have been enough to avoid that?

Rajk999 credits FMF for supposed weakness in Christians of just thinking and talking.
This is sheer idiocy from a reasoning that excludes the existence of God.

The apostles that accomplished quite much (for God's interests and not necessarily for the world's interests) released power in their living from speaking.

" And having the same spirit of faith according to that which is written,
"I believed, therefore I spoke,"
we also believe therefore we also speak." ( 2 Cor. 4:13)

The abject ignorance of Rajk999 is exposed again, tragically.

Out of their faith, Paul and his co-workers established the local churches - spoke from their deep belief. And because they stood on God's word, the faithful God followed their speaking.

"Oh, you are just for thinking and talking" says the ignorant doubter, giving credit to his partner in unbelief.

No, the BIble is for the living that comes out of believing in the heart and declaring with "the word of their testimony" to overcome and bring in the kingdom of God.

"Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb
and because of the WORD OF THEIR TESTIMONY,
and they loved not their soul-life even unto death." (Rev. 12:10b,11)

The Christian's speaking and proclaiming the truth is an important ingredient to being victorious. Satan for sure speaks to his heart day and night -

Blame, blame, blame, blame
accusation, accusation, accusation.

"How can YOU be a Christian??
How can YOU be like Jesus ??
Blame, blame, blame, blame"

This is the accusation of the Devil that the brothers are only for thinking and talking.
Let them lie there. Just jump over them and keep moving.
We overcome by the blood of Christ's redemption and by the word proclaimed, the facts stated, the truth spoken, the reality testified to.

Even if we have to speak to the extent that we have to lose our life, we will overcome by the power of grace released from proclaiming the divine facts, lie "Jesus is Lord. Jesus overcomes all death. Jesus lives in me. Jesus and His resurrection power is the grace through which I overcome!"

Originally posted by FMF
Do Christians who can do the speaking and believing in the heart bit pretty well but who don't actually manage to do the "unleashed God's enabling to live and serve Him overcomingly" thing so well, if at all, if that bit doesn't happen, do they get tortured (forever) or will the "speaking and believing" have been enough to avoid that?

A lesson from your own playbook -

No. I said we have already discussed this. You know what my answer is and I know what your views on it are. Neither of us need to repeat ourselves on this matter. The fact that you like to ignore what people say and then repeat yourself is boring.

- FMF

Originally posted by sonship
A lesson from your own playbook -

No. I said we have already discussed this. You know what my answer is and I know what your views on it are. Neither of us need to repeat ourselves on this matter. The fact that you like to ignore what people say and then repeat yourself is boring.

- FMF

So "speaking and believing" stuff is enough to become immortal? Nothing further required?