Christians please pray!

Originally posted by telerion
Judgement Day.

(Had to nip that one in the butt, before we get a long string of drivel from the Jesus Gang.)

I think we already did!!!Just look at the arguments around.!!!

Originally posted by Doremifaso
I think we already did!!!Just look at the arguments around.!!!

You say what?!

Originally posted by Halitose
Just my 2 cents: Salvation is still a conscious choice and as such, God doesn't violate our will. Prayer would result in circumstances that encourage salvation, but ultimately its still his/her choice...

I think this suffers from some serious determinance issues. I'll get into it when I have time.

(edited to add 'I think . . .' )

Originally posted by telerion
I think this suffers from some serious determinance issues. I'll get into it when I have time.

(edited to add 'I think . . .' )

Ok, so here's what I'm thinking. The analysis below uses sets losely to convey an idea. Some work will need to be done to make it rigorous. I encourage all constructive criticism, though I hope that the essential idea comes across as well.

According to your 2 cents, God answers the prayer for another's salvation by taking action. Let's consider another East Timorian named Martha. Furthermore, let's make three necessary assumptions for prayer to potentially be relevant to Martha's salvation.

1) Martha is not currently saved
2) Martha's future is such that without prayer she will certainly never be saved. (i.e. Martha choosing salvation necessarily implies the salvation prayer happened)
3) There exists a collection, C, of non-empty sets S, of sufficiently encouraging future circumstances, such that for every S there is a state q in which Martha will choose salvation.

There are three possible outcomes resulting from your 2 cents.

a) God does not answer the prayer.

In this case, the prayer is clearly ineffective in bringing Martha to salvation.

b) God answers the prayer, altering Martha's future but only by introducing insufficiently encouraging circumstances to induce Martha to accept salvation.

Once again, the prayer is ineffective in bringing Martha to salvation.

c) God answers the prayer, altering Martha's future by introducing sufficiently encouraging circumstances to induce Martha to accept salvation.

In this case, prayer is effective. Now getting back to the main subject, we must ask. Does this case violate Martha's free will?
I will define free will in the following manner:

DEF: An agent A has free will in state q if and only if given A chose action F from a choice set Z in q, A could also have not chosen F from Z.

This simply means that if you chose an action in some state of the world you could also have not chosen that action.

I claim that if case (c) obtains then Martha's free will is violated.

Proof: Suppose not, that is suppose that (c) obtains, and Martha's free will is not violated.
=> In the given state, without loss of generality call this state q, Martha chooses to accept salvation from the choice set Z(q)={F,F'}={salvation, not salvation}.
=> the prayer was spoken, and God chose S from C such that state q obtained (By assumption (2) and by (c) )

Also, Martha could have chosen F' (by free will) (here I conflate choosing F' with ~(choosing F). A fair action I think given orthodox xian beliefs about salvation.)
=> ~ (given S, Martha chooses salvation)

But this is a contradiction of assumption 3.

Therefore, effective "salvation prayers" of the sort BF101 describes can only exist if God violates free will.

Originally posted by sasquatch672
Bf, you're a whackjob. Not because you believe in God. I do too. (And don't tell me I'm not a believer, pharisee. I never drank the Kool Aid, that's all.) Your lack of critical thinking ability is, in a word, breathtaking. You can't argue with people, you can't refute anyone's points, so you quote scripture and tell people they're going t ...[text shortened]... it to make decisions about the direction of our country.

I hope you're happy with yourself.

You say you believe in GOD. Yet you are not disputing my personal word. You are disputing what THE WORD OF GOD says. Critical thinking? What THE WORD OF GOD, says is only disputeable to those to those that disbelieve it. In fact THE WORD OF GOD, does not argue. It states the points in fact, the actions that are, acceptable to GOD.
In truth your arguement is not with me, it is with GOD. If THE WORD OG GOD says, that living in sin. is the road to hell. So be it! That is what it says.
Your problem is, that you cannot ge arround it. How ever you live your life. Is you choice. If your choice lead you heaven or hell you make your choices. The most important thing in someones life that says, "I believe in God." Is to be encouraged that they are living right. Or warned that the are going to be punished, if they donot get their life right with CHRIST. You have the power to decide where you are going, to heaven or hell. If you believe in God, as you say you do. Then do so. If your life style is pleaseing to GOD. Let the World know. If your life style is lifting up the Name of JESUS, then do so. If your life style is lifting up the Name of JESUS. Let the world know how JESUS CHRIST, turned you from a life of Sin. Let the World know that it needs to repent from its sin. If you believe in GOD!!!

Originally posted by no1marauder
I did, it's more proof that Paul was not a true prophet of Jesus, who was after all Jewish. It's funny that your cult calls itself "Christian" but quotes Paul at least 10 times as much as Jesus. Why is that?

You keep insisting that Paul was not a true Prophet of JESUS. Strange thing though that both JESUS and Paul were both Jews. As You would well know that the whole purpose, in the life of Paul, before he got saved. Was to capture and kill Christians. You would also know that the change in life was such, that he brought many more to the Salvation of CHRIST.
You have continued to say that he was not a true Prophet of JESUS. Yet the only proof you offer is what? He was a Jew?
You say that Paul is quoted more than JESUS, really? When did Paul claim to be the SON OF GOD? When did Paul say that all could get to heaven, through him? Where did Paul say that his life was more than important then JESUS?
The Christian Cult? One thing for sure, THE WORD OF GOD, clearly says only those that believe THE WORD OF GOD, will ever get into heaven. Which I know Paul will be there, will You.

Got quiet all of a sudden.

Originally posted by blindfaith101
When did Paul claim to be the Son of God?

When did Jesus?

Originally posted by blindfaith101
If the Word of God says that living in sin is the road to hell, so be it! That is what it says.

Where does it say this?

Originally posted by blindfaith101
You keep insisting that Paul was not a true Prophet of JESUS. Strange thing though that both JESUS and Paul were both Jews. As You would well know that the whole purpose, in the life of Paul, before he got saved. Was to capture and kill Christians. You would also know that the change in life was such, that he brought many more to the Salvation of CHRIS ...[text shortened]... t believe THE WORD OF GOD, will ever get into heaven. Which I know Paul will be there, will You.

To say one of your posts is more idiotic than any of your other ones is a tough call, but surely this one hits a new low in inanity. If you knew anything about early Church history, you would know that there was a dispute in the early church between Paul and other church leaders regarding how "Jewish" the Christians would be. Some of it is spelled out in your WORD OF GOD which you apparently don't actually read. It's hard to imagine the church leaders in Jerusalem who followed the Jewish holidays and traditions (such as circumsion) writing the negative words towards Judaism that Paul wrote in Titus.

I claimed that you and your ilk quote Paul about ten times as much as you do Jesus and that may be an understatement. The rest of your comments are railing against things I never said. Do you know what a "Strawman" argument is? The rest of your crap about how you know who will be in Heaven, is your typical grandiose delusions. It starting to sound like YOU think you're God, or at least a close facsimile. That is also typical of the tiny cult that you are in, that contrary to your assertions, DOES NOT contain all Christians and from reading your hateful spew and comparing it to Jesus' gospels, apparently doesn't really contain any.

Originally posted by sasquatch672
HA HA!!!

And I said "you and your ilk" before I read your post.

Sadly, the rules of this forum prevent me from calling him what I believe would be more accurate terms.

Guys just think about this: If the Bible is the word of God then the Bible will judge you one day, no matter how much you argue about it today...

Originally posted by Wule

When did Jesus?

Read your Bible dude:

Matthew 26:63 - But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

64 - Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said it: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.