Originally posted by whodeyMatter and energy are the same thing. Explained by Big Bang, you should have a course in Relativity and Cosmology to understand the basics.
For me the existence of both matter and life are unexplicable. Therefore, the creation of either would be monumental to say the least.
Life explained in many good books. Good models, you should understand the main ideas if you have something as basic as a 12 year education. (i guess you call it high school).
They are explained, simply you don't accept them because you believe in God, and Bible.
Originally posted by KellyJayWell, when I find a fossil of a dinosaur, there are many possible explanations, the following come to mind:
I do not believe God faked anything, things are what they are, and
you could be right about the age of the universe, I have acknowledge
that from day one. I have never said that you are not trying to be
reasonable when dating, I have said and I still maintain you are
indeed making a leap of faith when you do!
1. A dinosaur died and its bones became fossilized.
2. God (or the devil) made the fossil to fool us into thinking that a dinosaur had existed.
3. The fossil came about via 'random chance' ie the atoms required to make the fossil just happened to end up in all the right places as to look like a fossil when actually it is just a highly improbable random configuration of atoms.
4. The fossil came about via some as yet unknown process.
I accept that we do not have a 'complete history' of the fossil, we do not have any witnesses, photos, videos or other documentary evidence of that particular dinosaurs dying, we can never 'prove' that the dinosaur ever existed, but I do not accept your claim that it took a 'leap of faith' for me to come to the conclusion that a dinosaur existed and died. I think a 'leap of faith' is what is required for 2 - 4 but 1. is just common sense.
Do you agree or do you still maintain that 1. is a leap of faith?
Originally posted by serigadoYes, I know that I am made up of matter. Thanks for sharing this great revelation!! However, to say that a nonliving peice of matter and a living peice of matter are one in the same is inaccurate. What makese me different from the dust from the earth combined with water from the ocean if anything?
Matter and energy are the same thing. Explained by Big Bang, you should have a course in Relativity and Cosmology to understand the basics.
Life explained in many good books. Good models, you should understand the main ideas if you have something as basic as a 12 year education. (i guess you call it high school).
They are explained, simply you don't accept them because you believe in God, and Bible.
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Originally posted by twhiteheadTrouble with that argument is that common sense is arrived at by virtue of your environment. What is common sense to you is magic to someone else and vice versa.
Well, when I find a fossil of a dinosaur, there are many possible explanations, the following come to mind:
1. A dinosaur died and its bones became fossilized.
2. God (or the devil) made the fossil to fool us into thinking that a dinosaur had existed.
3. The fossil came about via 'random chance' ie the atoms required to make the fossil just happened to just common sense.
Do you agree or do you still maintain that 1. is a leap of faith?
Magnetism, for example, is common sense though probably only because it has a name. It's actually perfectly potty.
The waves on the sea are common sense to most of use but probably because the sea is always like that. It doesn't make sense for a big blob of water to be wobbling about and moving all the time if you ask me. It takes someone to tell me about wind, gravity and the moon before it becomes mundane and I have to believe them.
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Originally posted by twhitehead1. A dinosaur died and its bones became fossilized. You think this didn't happen?
Well, when I find a fossil of a dinosaur, there are many possible explanations, the following come to mind:
1. A dinosaur died and its bones became fossilized.
2. God (or the devil) made the fossil to fool us into thinking that a dinosaur had existed.
3. The fossil came about via 'random chance' ie the atoms required to make the fossil just happened to just common sense.
Do you agree or do you still maintain that 1. is a leap of faith?
2. No the devil doesn't create, and why would God do that? Refer to
your one, you may as I pointed out to you before see the fossil and
come to the conclusion that because of the test results 'know' the
how, when, and why. I still submit to you, you are assuming you know,
you don't.
3. Ah you are reusing the evolutionary argument about life for fossils,
good one! You see how it sounds when it is applied to something you
don't think occured that way to? 🙂
4. We know the process, but the timing of it seems to be in disput.
We are in agreement that 1 is common sense, didn't know we were
in a disagreement that they were alive, died, and became fossils. We
are in a disagreement where people have to connect the dots when it
comes to dinosaurs though, such as how they fit in time, how they
are related to other living creatures, the little thinjgs that build up
someone's world views on the universe and its history.
Kelly
Originally posted by whodeyWhat makes you different from everyday matter? Complexity in the connections between the matter. Your ego/education/idontknow says you must be something more. I'm a little humbler.
Yes, I know that I am made up of matter. Thanks for sharing this great revelation!! However, to say that a nonliving peice of matter and a living peice of matter are one in the same is inaccurate. What makese me different from the dust from the earth combined with water from the ocean if anything?
The difference between an Hydrogen atom and a Helium atom is one number in the periodic table. ONE!
Yet, helium is SO much complex, scientists couldn't make yet an exact equation to describe it. This complexity grows exponentially. New, unexpected behaviors come forward when rising in the period table. And we are only talking about atoms. Molecules a lot more. Proteins, are a miracle of nature. I already need a god to explain proteins. Now... this is NOTHING compared to the complexity of a single unicelullar organism. We are so complex, such a miracle of nature, but only a combination of elements.
EVERY single part of you, and i mean EVERY, is made of billions of trillions of these components, interacting.
You need a god to explain this complexity. Difference from life to non-life is complexity. TO such a scale you can't imagine.
Originally posted by KellyJayLet me ask you something....
1. A dinosaur died and its bones became fossilized. You think this didn't happen?
2. No the devil doesn't create, and why would God do that? Refer to
your one, you may as I pointed out to you before see the fossil and
come to the conclusion that because of the test results 'know' the
how, when, and why. I still submit to you, you are assuming you know, ...[text shortened]... tle thinjgs that build up
someone's world views on the universe and its history.
Kelly
Do you believe dinosaurs never existed, or never lived?
Because if they lived, they must have been walking around with humans.
There are huge things that don't make sense in your view of the world.
Originally posted by serigadoYes I do believe they lived, and did so with humans.
Let me ask you something....
Do you believe dinosaurs never existed, or never lived?
Because if they lived, they must have been walking around with humans.
There are huge things that don't make sense in your view of the world.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayI'm stunned. I don't know where to start....
Yes I do believe they lived, and did so with humans.
Kelly
For now let's forget evolution.
What in the world suggests you that earth is only 6k years old? Except the bible. Do you believe blindly in what the bibles says, just because it says so?
I'm still shocked... i can't elaborate...
Originally posted by duecerIf you say god created the conditions for the formation and evolution of life and then let it evolve , you can't call it creationism.
who says evolution and creation are mutually exclusive?
God and evolution can coexist.
Creationism and Evolution can't.
Originally posted by serigadoBut you could say that a god might create everything at some point and then direct every single genetic mutation that occurs throughout history according to god's grand plan. It could very well look like random mutation and survival of the fittest to us.
If you say god created the conditions for the formation and evolution of life and then let it evolve , you can't call it creationism.
God and evolution can coexist.
Creationism and Evolution can't.
Originally posted by WheelyI agree with most of your post, except where you say 'trouble is'. Why is it a problem? I am not claiming to have proved anything I am just trying to show that 'a leap of faith' is required when something goes against your common sense (environment) and not when it fits in with your common sense. Kelly is trying to claim that yesterday happening is essentially fact but the existence of dinosaurs is 'a leap of faith'. He is essentially trying to make it look like the evidence for the age of the earth is based on assumptions rather than evidence or that the evidence is not very solid.
Trouble with that argument is that common sense is arrived at by virtue of your environment.
He keeps his statements very vague but there is always an implication to them and I want him to admit that what he is imply is false and he knows it.
Originally posted by KellyJayBut you stated before that you could not possibly know what happened that long ago. Tou do not know the history of the fossil and cannot possibly know whether a dinosaur really lived or not.
We are in agreement that 1 is common sense, didn't know we were
in a disagreement that they were alive, died, and became fossils.
Why do you distinguish between:
1. The fossil came from a dinosaur.
2. The fossil is 1 million years old.
Both are 'connecting the dots'. We do not have more evidence for 1 than for 2 yet you take 1 as fact and dispute 2 claiming that 2 is 'an assumption'. Why is 1 common sense and not 2?
Originally posted by KellyJayI don't remember mentioning the evolutionary argument at all. Could you quote me and show me where I did? Or are you under the seriously mistaken impression that evolution is 'random chance'.
3. Ah you are reusing the evolutionary argument about life for fossils,
good one! You see how it sounds when it is applied to something you
don't think occured that way to? 🙂