@kellyjay saidNot sure I follow you here. I have already posted the Galatians passage in question. here it is again:
Galatians 3:
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.” 11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for “The righteous shall live by faith.” 12 But the law is not of faith, rather “The one who does them shall live by ...[text shortened]... If we had to work for it God would owe us, if we had be righteous enough one sin would be our doom.
'Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by BECOMING a curse for us.'
So which is it? Was Jesus 'made' sin or did He 'become' it?!
@ghost-of-a-duke saidSorry, but you're still goofing it up. 2 Corinthians 5 says God "made" him "to be sin", and Galatians 3 says only that Jesus "being made a curse for us"(KJV), because ~ "for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"
Correct, you stated: 'Jesus was "made" sin.' (Which I initially said). I responded with Galatians 3:13 clearly demonstrating that he 'became' sin:
'Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by BECOMING a curse for us.'
I used 'sinful' to contrast with the 'sinless' nature of Jesus and how it was incompatible for him to have been 'made' both. (Free of sin and 'full' of sin).
Two separate contexts with two separate aspects of Jesus' crucifixion relative to our benefit. You are cross referencing two distinct things and blending them together to arrive at a conclusion not consistent with the correct interpretation and application of each.
@ghost-of-a-duke said2 Corinthians 5:21
Not sure I follow you here. I have already posted the Galatians passage in question. here it is again:
'Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by BECOMING a curse for us.'
So which is it? Was Jesus 'made' sin or did He 'become' it?!
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
When the people were being set free from Egypt and God told them to put the blood of a lamb over the doors, what happen to those under the blood when it came time for the destroyer to pass through?
Exodus 12:23
For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians, and when he sees the blood on the lintel and on the two doorposts, the Lord will pass over the door and will not allow the destroyer to enter your houses to strike you.
The thing is, did God say only put the worthy in the homes, and I will spare them? He said, when He sees the blood, it is not us but the lamb of God, that God provided, He is our redeemer who saves us from our sins, who takes away the sins of the world. This same God in the OT is doing the same thing, but this time through Jesus Christ it wasn't just for the Hebrew people, but the whole world. Same God, sends His Lamb to save the world.
John 1
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
Not two gods, one good and one bad, but God doing a work of redemption, keeping a promise made to Abraham.
Acts 3:25
You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your offspring shall all the families of the earth be blessed.’
Galatians 3:8
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”
One God, one plan, one Redeemer Christ the Lord.
@secondson saidGod made him “to be sin.” Paul’s language is careful. He did not say Jesus became a sinner, which would be untrue. Rather, Jesus BECAME the representative sin-bearer. He identified 100 percent with the sin of the world when he died on the cross (John 1:29). God treated Jesus as if he were sin itself.
Sorry, but you're still goofing it up. 2 Corinthians 5 says God "made" him "to be sin", and Galatians 3 says only that Jesus "being made a curse for us"(KJV), because ~ "for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:"
Two separate contexts with two separate aspects of Jesus' crucifixion relative to our benefit. You are cross referencing two distinct thing ...[text shortened]... er to arrive at a conclusion not consistent with the correct interpretation and application of each.
Jesus, who was sinless, BECAME sin for us so that we, who are sinful, might become righteousness when we are united to him. (TGC).
The whole point of this discussion SecondSon is to discount your objection to the description of Jesus as 'becoming sin' as if somehow this is an affront to saying he was 'made sin.' It isn't, and you are blind to your own scripture.
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God made him “to be sin.” Paul’s language is careful. He did not say Jesus became a sinner, which would be untrue. Rather, Jesus BECAME the representative sin-bearer. He identified 100 percent with the sin of the world when he died on the cross (John 1:29). God treated Jesus as if he were sin itself.
Jesus, who was sinless, BECAME sin for us so that we, who are sinful, might become righteousness when we are united to him. (TGC).
You appear to be one atheist who will not be able to stand before God in the last judgment with the excuse that you didn't understand.
I think you better throw open the doors of your heart and receive this Jesus as Lord and Savior Whom you appear so apt to teach about.
@sonship saidAnd you? Do you not understand Matthew 7:15?!
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
[quote] God made him “to be sin.” Paul’s language is careful. He did not say Jesus became a sinner, which would be untrue. Rather, Jesus BECAME the representative sin-bearer. He identified 100 percent with the sin of the world when he died on the cross (John 1:29). God treated Jesus as if he were sin itself.
Jesus, who was sinless, BECAME sin for us so ...[text shortened]... f your heart and receive this Jesus as Lord and Savior Whom you appear so apt to teach about.
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
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And you? Do you not understand Matthew 7:15?!
Oh yes. I have had much experience. Off and on the Internet.
I had much experience before the Internet was invented, with wolves in sheep's clothing.
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
That is right. Outwardly they seemed as followers of the Shepherd as other sheep. Inwardly, "Kill! Kill the Life!" is their motive. It comes out eventually.
Why do you ask ?
@sonship saidBecause Witness Lee is such a wolf.
@Ghost-of-a-DukeAnd you? Do you not understand Matthew 7:15?!
Oh yes. I have had much experience. Off and on the Internet.
I had much experience before the Internet was invented with wolves in sheep's clothing.
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
That is rig ...[text shortened]... "Kill! Kill the Life!" [/i] is their motive. It comes out eventually.
Why do you ask ?
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The thing is, did God say only put the worthy in the homes, and I will spare them? He said, when He sees the blood, it is not us but the lamb of God, that God provided, He is our redeemer who saves us from our sins, who takes away the sins of the world. This same God in the OT is doing the same thing, but this time through Jesus Christ it wasn't just for the Hebrew people, but the whole world. Same God, sends His Lamb to save the world.
That's right. The destroying angel didn't even look inside to see who was there. When the blood was seen on the outside, judgment PASSED OVER them.
Neither God nor the judging angel double checked inside the house to see if the ones standing around the table were worthy, kind, good or bad, evil. etc. It was the blood that was on the outside which caused God to passover them.
As to eternal redemption? It was the blood of the Lamb that saved them.
@sonship saidActually I have learned more about Witness Lee in the last 12 months than I did in the previous 12 years and feel confident enough to describe him as a wolf in sheep's clothing and to aptly defend that position.
@Ghost-of-a-DukeBecause Witness Lee is such a wolf.
Sigh. I am going to account this saying of yours to ignorance. I honestly, at this point, just account this mistake as due to ignorance.
You just don't know what you're talking about.
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@ghost-of-a-duke saidActually, "a [wolf] in sheep's clothing" would more describe you. You don't even teach of the reality of God's existence, regardless of your other pretensions.
Actually I have learned more about Witness Lee in the last 12 months than I did in the previous 12 years and feel confident enough to describe him as a wolf in sheep's clothing and to aptly defend that position.
Paul warned the Ephesian elders that from their midst "wolves" would arrive not sparing the sheep and speaking perverse things.
"I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
And from among you yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverted things to draw away the disciples after them." (Acts 20:29,30)
Though I do not know of your origin that much, I do know that speaking that God does not exist, as an atheist that you claim to be, fits the description. Posturing as knowledgeable about the teaching of Christ while proudly announcing that there is no God, could hardly be MORE like a wolf in sheep's clothing.
These are definitely "perverse things" you teach against God's very existence.
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"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves" (Matt. 7:15)
So you, supposedly conversant to Christians on New Testament salvation, deny God totally. Your essential destructive nature to kill the experience of God as divine life in people is exposed and obvious.
"By their fruits you will recognize them, Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?" (v.16)
Or do Christians gather atheistic statements about the non-existence of God from a supposed conveyor of sound Christian teaching?
No and No.
"Every good tree produces good fruit, but the corrupt produces bad fruit." (v.17)
Outwardly you come as a conveyor of Christian teaching accurately. What is gathered is anti-Christ and anti-theistic teaching about your godless philosophy. If that isn't gathering noxious thorns where sweet grapes were expected, I don't know what is. If that is not gathering poisoned thistles where tasty figs were expected, I don't know what is.
"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, neither can a corrupt tree produce good fruit." (v.18)
A good teacher of Christian theology cannot wind up teaching atheism. Such is a crackpot. Such is a fraud Gospel teacher peddling the non-existence of God, salvation, and divine life itself.
Maybe we do have some here who are wolves in WOLVES clothing. They plainly declare they are not for God. You come in sheep's clothing concealing intention to destroy the belief in God, period, yet clocked in sound Christian theology.
"So then by their fruits you will recognize them." (v.20)
I recognize you as confident that some classes in Christian theology has equipped you to go among Christians and assure them that Atheism is the truth. Bad fruit. Killing fruit. Poison fruit.
"False prophet" and "ravenous [wolf]" more accurately describes yourself until you repent to believe in God and in the salvation of the Son of God.
@sonship saidI don't think you have thought this through.
Actually, "a [wolf] in sheep's clothing" would more describe you. You don't even teach of the reality of God's existence, regardless of your other pretensions.
Paul warned the Ephesian elders that from their midst "wolves" would arrive not sparing the sheep and speaking perverse things.
[quote] "I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come i ...[text shortened]... s clothing.
These are definitely [b]"perverse things" you teach against God's very existence.
As an open atheist, I am not wearing any clothes but my own. There can be no confusion about where I stand on the subject of God. A wolf in sheep's clothing is someone pretending to be something they're not, like your friend Witness Lee. An open atheist will not lead the Christian astray. Only a false prophet like Lee can do that.
It is you Sonship that needs to beware.