Did Jesus sin?

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

“The traditional explanation of the Trinity is grossly inadequate and borders on tritheism” (Life Messages, p. 164).

I think the statement has probably been born out on this very Forum. Some of the most vocal critics of the word "trinity" seem to think it denotes polytheism - or three gods.

Divegeester, for example, who I have never been able to have him pinpoint exactly what he thinks the doctrine of the trinity is, to this day, I think he thinks it means three Gods.

So the quote there, I think has been born out by some who come here pointing to the Shema and the Lord being ONE Lord from Deuteronomy, and reactionary phrases against one saying "Triune God".

Trinity doesn't mean three Gods. I am clear about that. Maybe some other brothers are not too clear about that. The belief in three Gods is called tritheism.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

“The traditional explanation of the Trinity is grossly inadequate and borders on tritheism” (Life Messages, p. 164).

I think the statement has probably been born out on this very Forum. Some of the most vocal critics of the word "trinity" seem to think it denotes polytheism - or three gods.

Divegeester, for example, who I have never ...[text shortened]... aybe some other brothers are not too clear about that. The belief in three Gods is called tritheism.

Lee spoke about the 'traditional explanation of the Trinity' being inadequate.

Do you agree with him that the traditional explanation, put forward by many theological giants, is inadequate?

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

I have not read that many presentations of the Trinity. So I defer to Brother Lee on the volume of such he would consider inadequate.

However, I found the paragraph and would like to quote more of that section.

From Life Messages, vol. 2 (#45-75) by Witness Lee
https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=0D21CC96AB

Erroneous Concepts of the Trinity

The traditional explanation of the Trinity is grossly inadequate and borders on tritheism. When the Spirit of God is joined with us, God is not left behind, nor does Christ remain on the throne. This is the impression that Christianity gives. They think of the Father as one person, sending the Son, another person, to accomplish redemption, after which the Son sends the Spirit, yet another person. The Spirit, in traditional thinking, comes into the believers, while the Father and Son are left on the throne. When believers pray, they are taught to bow before the Father and pray in the name of the Son. To split the Godhead into these separate persons is not the revelation of the Bible but the doctrine of the Nicene Creed.

It is also helpful for me to grasp the speaker's burden by examining the preceding section too.

THE TRIUNE GOD IN ROMANS 8
The Spirit that we are referring to is the Spirit; that is, it is the Triune God who has been processed and has become the life-giving Spirit. This Triune God saturates the tripartite man. Look at Romans 8:9, and you will see the reference to the Triune God: “You are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him.” Notice that God, Christ, and the Spirit are all mentioned here. Yet this verse is not making a doctrinal statement; it is dealing with our experience. Contrary to the way Christianity presents it, the Trinity is not a doctrine for us to subscribe to. We need God to be triune in order that we may experience Him. God, Christ, and the Spirit are all for our experience.

I think Lee is emphasizing that the Trinity is definitely for our subjective experience rather than a dogma to have arguments over in a merely objective way.

@sonship said

I think Lee is emphasizing that the Trinity is definitely for our subjective experience rather than a dogma to have arguments over in a merely objective way.

Lee seeks to replace the traditional idea of the Trinty with a Quadruple, where man himself muscles his way into the Godhead.

Lee, I believe takes the folly of Babel one step further. - “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves..."

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Lee seeks to replace the traditional idea of the Trinity with a Quadruple, where man himself muscles his way into the Godhead.

No he does not.
He has no concept of man being worshipped as God is worshipped.

The New Testament speaks of God imparting and dispensing His life and nature into His redeemed people. And it is the petition of Christ, the request of Christ, that the body of all believers be one and one with the Divine Us of He and His Father.

Christ requests it of the Father not instructs the believers to "muscle" their way to be one with the Triune God.

"And I do not ask concerning these only, but concerning those also who believe into Me through their word.

That they all may be one, even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; ...

And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may e one, even as We are one;

I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, ... (See John 17:20-23)

This is Christ's desire and mighty intercession to the Father for the church. And this mighty request will be carried out as an unfailing certainty. However it does not mean there will no more be the unique Triune God.

Lee, I believe takes the folly of Babel one step further. - “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves..."

No. Quite the opposite. You should read "The Vision of God's Building" by Witness Lee.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=26067C

New Jerusalem is what God is building as His habitation, His dwelling, His living temple, and His house dwelling in His redeemed, regenerated, transformed, built up resurrected and glorified saints.

They didn't teach you anything about this probably in your religious education.

The Apostle Paul speaks again:

"So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.

Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the chief cornerstone; In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord;

In whom you also [in the church in Ephesus] are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:21-22)

Go back to your teachers and inform them that they taught you nothing about God building Himself into man and building man into a habitation of God in spirit.

But a little man from China has been speaking these things according to the New Testament.

Here is the table of contents and FORWARD to the book by Witness Lee
The Vision of God's Building

The Vision of God’s Building
CONTENTS

1. God’s Intention
2. The Steps to Attain God’s Goal
3. Satan’s Counterfeits
4. A Bird’s-eye View
5. The Experience of the Outer Court
6. The Experience of the Holy Place
7. The Experience of the Holy of Holies
8. The Building of the Tabernacle
9. From the End of Exodus to the Beginning of 1 Samuel
10. The History of the Tabernacle and the Ark
11. The Recovery and Enlargement of God’s Building
12. The Struggle Over God’s Building and Further Enlargement
13. The Building of God in the New Testament
14. Christ as Life for the Building
15. Gifts and Functions for the Building
16. The Revelation of the New Jerusalem throughout the Scriptures
17. Aspects of the Church Life as Seen in the New Jerusalem (1)
18. Aspects of the Church Life as Seen in the New Jerusalem (2)
19. Aspects of the Church Life as Seen in the New Jerusalem (3)

FOREWORD

To fulfill His eternal purpose God must accomplish two categories of work: the work of creation and the work of building. The Scriptures open with God’s creation and finish with His building. God’s creation is for His building, and God’s building is the ultimate consummation that fulfills His purpose in creation. The principal means for accomplishing God’s creation is His divine power. But the main element utilized for God’s building is the divine life. We were born into God’s creation, but we are reborn for God’s building, which is the church, the ultimate consummation of which is the New Jerusalem. This building is of life, by life, and with life. Regeneration in life is the beginning, growth in life is the continuation, and maturity in life is the consummation of life for this building of God. Eventually, in the New Jerusalem, God’s ultimate building, there is a river of life flowing for those who participate in God’s building to drink, and the tree of life growing in the river of life for them to eat. These signify that the building of God is produced, nourished, and sustained by God Himself and with God Himself in Christ as life to us. Hence, for us to partake of God’s building, there is no other way but by life and with life.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=26067C

@sonship said
Here is the table of contents and FORWARD to the book by Witness Lee
The Vision of God's Building

The Vision of God’s Building
CONTENTS

1. God’s Intention
2. The Steps to Attain God’s Goal
3. Satan’s Counterfeits
4. A Bird’s-eye View
5. The Experience of the Outer Court
6. The Experience of the Holy Place
7. The Experience of the Holy o ...[text shortened]... o other way but by life and with life.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=26067C

“Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves..." Lee would continue, "We can devour God and become God in our own right!"

@ghost-of-a-duke said
“Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves..." Lee would continue, "We can devour God and become God in our own right!"

I think your statement is closer to Atheism setting themselves up to be the sole measure of truth and reality.

@kellyjay said
I think your statement is closer to Atheism setting themselves up to be the sole measure of truth and reality.

While I think (yet again) you haven't been following the thread.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
While I think (yet again) you haven't been following the thread.

Nothing about what I said changes, you can spend a lot of time arguing about what someone else believes. Truth is the only thing worth defending if all that is done here is conveying our own opinions you're arguing about pointless points. Who cares if this is all opinions. When you suggest errors, you are proclaiming the truth, than what I said is entirely valid.

@kellyjay said
Nothing about what I said changes, you can spend a lot of time arguing about what someone else believes. Truth is the only thing worth defending if all that is done here is conveying our own opinions you're arguing about pointless points. Who cares if this is all opinions. When you suggest errors, you are proclaiming the truth, than what I said is entirely valid.

It really isn't.

If you want to contribute to a discussion, at least take the time to understand what the discussion is about. Otherwise you are just contributing random fluff.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
It really isn't.

If you want to contribute to a discussion, at least take the time to understand what the discussion is about. Otherwise you are just contributing random fluff.

No, I commented on what I wanted to, and you are the one ignoring the point I made, is this how you play in La La land?

@kellyjay said
No, I commented on what I wanted to, and you are the one ignoring the point I made, is this how you play in La La land?

Your point was irrelevant.

That's the point.

(In fact so irrelevant was your point that I don't even remember what it was).

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Your point was irrelevant.

That's the point.

(In fact so irrelevant was your point that I don't even remember what it was).

No, my point is relevant just not to your liking. Which it seems is the only thing that matters!

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

“Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves..." Lee would continue, "We can devour God and become God in our own right!"

Jesus said that He would build His church.

"And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." (Matt. 16:18)

Though He is the BUILDER, the saved through His life in them CO-BUILD. For example Paul says the Body builds up itself in love.

"Out from whom all the Body, being joined together and being knit to through every joint of the rich supply and through the operation in the measure of each one part, causes the growth of the Body UNTO THE BUILDING UP OF ITSELF IN LOVE." (Eph. 4:16)

Now you may cry "Buiding the tower of Babel. Building the tower of Babel!"

The word of God say Christ builds AND the Body builds up itself in love.

Paul even exhorts to believers to EXCEL to the building up of the church.

"I desire ... , especially that you would prophecy; ... that the church may receive building up." (See 1 Cor. 14:5)

The Christians are to experience Christ and then come together and SPEAK forth the Christ that they experience. To prophesy builds up the church that Christ said HE would build.

You may say this is Tower or Babel building. The New Testament teaches that Christ builds through the building up of the saints of one another in love.

"But he who prophesies speaks building up and encouragement and consolation to men. He who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but he who prophesies builds up the church." (v.3,4)

So in the local churches we learn to that Christ will build His church, AND He also indirectly does so by our SPEAKING forth Christ and prophesying forth - speaking for God.

Paul says the saints should earnestly desire to build up the church which Christ said He would build.

"So also you, since you are zealous of spirits, seek that you may excel for the building up of the church." (v.12)

You seem to want to discourage the believers from co-building with Christ. You seem that you prefer that the Christians do not excel to the building up of the church. Because for you, that is like building up the Tower of Babel.

But we in the local churches listen to the apostle to EXCEL to the building up of the church. We all want to be joints and sinews knit together in love supplying life to the Body of Christ for the building up His Body in love.

God supplies the divine life. To co-build with Christ, we plant and water. God gives the growth that the building may grow. Its growing in life is also its being built up.

That is why Paul said the church is both a farm for growing and a building to be built up as it is growing.

"I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth. So then neither is he who plants anything nor he who waters, but God who causes the growth.
Now he who plants and he who waters are one, but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's cultivated land [farm] God's building." (1 Cor. 3:6-9)

The purpose of this post is to prove that Christ builds His church directly Himself, and indirectly He builds through the functioning of the members of His Body. They co-build in cooperation with Christ.

So this is not the building up of the rebellious Tower of Babel.