Divination

Originally posted by sonship
You don't have to listen to the re-telling you know? You don't have to read it.

You should start a private blog, invite contributors, and moderate all comments if you don't wish your ideology to be subjected to scrutiny in debate and discussion. And if you only want to talk to Christians, then you should perhaps consider posting on a Christian web site.

Originally posted by sonship
Oh, while I think of it. Maybe I didn't get your poetry too well on the song about the little Red Rooster. But the "joylessness" of it wasn't misunderstood by me. That is unless the lyrics were intended to be joyous, which I doubt. And this was pointed out because you jolly to always say "sonship, you're joyless" Physician heal thyself.

If you don't care for the characters and narratives in my little home made songs, fine. It doesn't matter to me.

But I'm not the one assailing you with abject nonsense... with accusations of being evil, or in cahoots with "Satan", or diseased, or suggestions that you're causing the eternal torture of "hundreds of people" on this web site, or you being akin to a holocaust denier, or you demonstrating how low humanity has stooped.

And I'm not the one making claims about a supernatural being which has communicated with me, and about a cast of angels and demons that the ancient Hebrews dreamed up, and how the supernatural being is going to be so unimaginably angry and so unimaginably vengeful with you that he is going to keep you alive in some kind of paranormal pyrotechnic never ending torture ceremony, while I will be "forgiven" and will "marry" Jesus and live happily ever after.

My songs have absolutely nothing to do with all this stuff you peddle here day in day out.

Originally posted by FMF
"The art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers". ~ merriam-webster.com

When people use a combination of things "learned" from the supposedly divinely inspired Bible ~ inspired by a supernatural being, or so many believe ~ along with ...[text shortened]... this "divination", or does the term have a narrower meaning in discussions of spiritual matters?

The question is a good one and for the Christian it connects discernment, faith and obedience.

Let's come at this from the perspective of the Christian in order to provide a working frame of reference and avoid the sonhouse dead-end of "it's all BS so none of its real so why are you talking about it" scenario. (That's not an actual quote by the way).

Superficially the bible is a little unclear on this topic which is why many Christians or seekers get entangled in all sorts of mystical mumbo-jumbo, however taking a holistic view of scripture does provide suffience insight I think. Deuteronomy is clear that the practices described as "divination" are adolotry and lumps them in with child sacrifice, occult practices and the like.

However in many places in the bible there is talk of "casting lots", "the lot is cast" etc. E.g. "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord" (Proverbs 16:33). Even after Jesus death... "Then they drew lots [other translations have 'cast lots'] to choose between the two men, and the one chosen was Matthias" Acts 1:26. However the practice is not mentioned again in the bible after Pentecost and the coming of the spirit.

Over the years I have often heard Christians talking about "putting out a fleece", a reference to Giddeon seeking a decision from God about a battle he was about to undertake but laying out fleeces overnight over several nights and requesting god keep one dry as a sign. Giddeon is one of my favourite biblical characters, and example of how God does more with less. But Giddeon new he was in danger of angering God and he said so in his prayer. God had given him sufficient leading but Giddeon had weak faith and wanted more from God.

This is OK, but today we have the complete word of god and the indwelling spirit that was given at Passover. Which is why there is no mention of fleeces or lot casting after that point. I'm not suggesting that putting out a metaphorical fleece to seek a decision from god is wrong per-se, but I do think that this "heads or tails" approach to obedience is somewhat congruent with the contemporary mind-set of immediacy.

Twice in Matthew Jesus said "A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jonah is another favourite character of mine; he had an absolute clear mandate from god, wether by audible voice or inner voice, he was told to go preach to the lost people of Nineveh. He disobeyed. I wonder if the adulterous generation that Jesus spoke of is those looking to put out fleeces, cast lots, do anything except what god has led them to do. I wonder about this for myself actually. "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly” (Colossians 3:16) is perhaps a better perspective.

So, yes "divination" - the practice of trusting one's future decisions to chance or engaging spirits in order to see the future can be interpreted as occult; but the act of seeking God through faith and adhering to the word in its entirety and in context, is the way.

Originally posted by FMF
"The art or practice that seeks to foresee or foretell future events or discover hidden knowledge usually by the interpretation of omens or by the aid of supernatural powers". ~ merriam-webster.com

When people use a combination of things "learned" from the supposedly divinely inspired Bible ~ inspired by a supernatural being, or so many believe ~ along with ...[text shortened]... this "divination", or does the term have a narrower meaning in discussions of spiritual matters?

I remember reading a book by Michio Kaku entitled "Physics of the Impossible." In it, he analyzes about 15 concepts that are not doable today and discusses whether they may be possible in the future, assigning Class 1 (not doable now, but very possibly doable in the forseeable future), Class 2 (impossible until we make major technological and scientific advancements, but may be possible in some distant future) or Class 3 (impossible forever absent a radical departure from accepted scientific principles).

Precognition was one of only two ideas he consigned to Class 3 (the other being a perpetual motion machine).

Originally posted by FMF

If you don't care for the characters and narratives in my little home made songs, fine. It doesn't matter to me.

You make great rock songs.
Look, on more than one occasion you have launched the "JOYLESS" label to me. Right? "sonship, you are joyless" .

So you get some pushback from your own lyrics.
Stop calling me joyless and and stop saying "what about you."

But I doubt you'r going to stop because you like the criticism. Moving on.

But I'm not the one assailing you with abject nonsense...

I don't need to play "victim". But you actually do assail the Gospel with some nonsense.

with accusations of being evil, or in cahoots with "Satan", or diseased, or suggestions that you're causing the eternal torture of "hundreds of people" on this web site, or you being akin to a holocaust denier, or you demonstrating how low humanity has stooped.

Okay, first the "diseased" thing. What I most certainly said was that some posters were "diseased with QUESTIONINGS". That is a quote from the New Testament.

It means that some opposers to Paul and Timothy's gospel preaching ASKED question, after question, after question, after question.

Now, asking questions of itself is certainly not wrong. But there were opposing teachers, enemies of the Gospel, attackers, detractors out to destroy the Gospel, which Paul referred to were only asking loads of questions to see if they could poke holes in the Gospel and convince themselves that it was all illogical fools talk.

Not that you care, but here is where I derived the phrase "diseased"

" If anyone teaches different things and does not consent to healthy words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the teaching which is according to godliness, he is blinded with pride, understanding nothing, but is DISEASED with questionings and contentions of words, out of which come envy, strife, slanders, evil suspicions." (1 Tim. 6:3,4)

Some posters here fit this unfortunate description.
And the aim of most of their questions are only to prove the Gospel is false.

Sometimes questions may be sincere, and asked from a mind that is willing to learn.
Other times questionings are only ceaseless attacks disguised as genuine interest.

The only interest is to debunk the Bible.

And I'm not the one making claims about a supernatural being which has communicated with me,

That's too bad. it is part of normal manhood and proper humanity that there should be fellowship between people and the heavenly Father.

What you are doing here is attempting to push the normal fellowship with God to be spooky, fantastical, foolish, and sensational. You need to do that to convince yourself that fellowship with God is utterly foolish.

It should be quite normal that one have fellowship deep in his being with God.
I do not claim to hear audible voices.
But to commune with God is something we all need to be even normal human beings.

It is abnormal to not be able to get a prayer through to God.
It is abnormal that one should not sense God's pleasure or leading or support of wisdom coming to him.

This is not a state we should regard as healthy.
It may be average but it is not normal. And we should seek God that we don't put up with such distance between Him and ourselves.

and about a cast of angels and demons that the ancient Hebrews dreamed up, and how the supernatural being is going to be so unimaginably angry and so unimaginably vengeful with you that he is going to keep you alive in some kind of paranormal pyrotechnic never ending torture ceremony, while I will be "forgiven" and will "marry" Jesus and live happily ever after.

To this tirade and to anyone who feels impressed by it I would only ask two questions at the moment:

1.) What kind of person do you ascertain Jesus to have been ?
Consider His mind, His conscience, His will, His emotion, His integrity and character.

2.) How SERIOUSLY did Jesus seem to take our need to be saved ?

At the moment that is all that I would ask of anyone who feels swayed by this little diatribe above.

You readers should do some reading. You should consider the experience of Jesus committing Himself to the uttermost to go to the cross.

Matt. 26,27; Mark 14:32-42; Luke 22,23; John 18,19

How seriously did Jesus take His need to do this act of obedience to the Father for us sinners ?

Does Jesus seem like a person prone to foolishness and self delusion? Ask yourself as you read.

Does Jesus seem to have a character of one self deceived, insane, dishonest, untrustworthy, foolish, unsober, befuddled about the real world, confused as to the condition of people, and in a fog about what will happen to sinners?

I think against the backdrop of FMF's wild caricature of a utterly foolish teaching, one should ask these two questions.

1. What kind of person was Jesus?

2. How seriously did He take our need for a salvation?

My songs have absolutely nothing to do with all this stuff you peddle here day in day out.

You want to dish out what you dish out.
You have a glass jaw when your own medicine is put in a spoon and turned around for you to take some.

Don't call me joyless unless you don't want me to point out - "What about you?"
And if you can't take me asking "What about you?" then you could just stop playing the "joyless" card on me.

But if you don't want to stop. It makes little difference to me.
"The joy of the Lord is my strength".

Originally posted by sh76
I remember reading a book by Michio Kaku entitled "Physics of the Impossible." In it, he analyzes about 15 concepts that are not doable today and discusses whether they may be possible in the future, assigning Class 1 (not doable now, but very possibly doable in the forseeable future), Class 2 (impossible until we make major technological and scientific advance ...[text shortened]... was one of only two ideas he consigned to Class 3 (the other being a perpetual motion machine).

I have not read this book, but I may have to seek it out.

Tell me this: in which class did he put time travel (particularly into the past)? I ask, because Einstein seems to have called it impossible, now and forever, given the constraints of his theories.

Originally posted by divegeester
The question is a good one and for the Christian it connects discernment, faith and obedience.

Let's come at this from the perspective of the Christian in order to provide a working frame of reference and avoid the sonhouse dead-end of "it's all BS so none of its real so why are you talking about it" scenario. (That's not an actual quote by th ...[text shortened]... f seeking God through faith and adhering to the word in its entirety and in context, is the way.

This is one of the best posts I've seen from you regarding Christian concepts. Well done.

Originally posted by Suzianne
This is one of the best posts I've seen from you regarding Christian concepts. Well done.

Thank you.
I don't generally regard this place as somewhere I normally wish to discuss "Christian" things as there is too much polarity of thinking even among those calling themselves "Christian", also complete disdain and outright loathing from others. However, occasionally I see somewhere I can humbly add value.
Despite my somewhat combative online persona I don't regard myself highly in Christian terms, but I do enjoy contending for the truth.

Originally posted by divegeester
Thank you.
I don't generally regard this place as somewhere I normally wish to discuss "Christian" things as there is too much polarity of thinking even among those calling themselves "Christian", also complete disdain and outright loathing from others. However, occasionally I see somewhere I can humbly add value.
Despite my somewhat combative online ...[text shortened]... ersona I don't regard myself highly in Christian terms, but I do enjoy contending for the truth.

I don't think you could claim to be "above it all" and not yourself also prone to some occasional polarity.

IE. No trinity !!
IE. No torturing God !!!

Originally posted by sonship
I don't think you could claim to be "above it all" and not yourself also prone to some occasional polarity.

IE. No trinity !!
IE. No torturing God !!!

Did I say I was either "above it all" or not "prone to polarity"?

Originally posted by sonship
That's too bad. it is part of normal manhood and proper humanity that there should be fellowship between people and the heavenly Father.

You diagnose me as lacking in "normal manhood" and "proper humanity"?

Originally posted by sonship
Look, on more than one occasion you have launched the "JOYLESS" label to me. Right? "sonship, you are joyless" . .

Absolutely. More joyless than almost any other Christian I have ever met. Most Christians I have known (or at least those whose faith has permeated their lives in an overt way) are all about doing stuff while armed with their faith, about how specifically their faith and spirituality affect their lives in concrete ways, what they do, how they affect people, how they demonstrate their beliefs in their works, in their families, in their communities, and in their organisations or institutions as they tackle real issues.

You by contrast are an arid ideologue. You think stuff. You think stuff about Jesus. You think stuff about yourself. You talk about what you think. Nothing shines through. There is no joyousness one might seek to emulate. Most joyful and admirable Christians I have had the pleasure of knowing believe what they believe and it manifests itself in how they walk the walk.

You, by comparison, are forever simpering about people being unimpressed by what you say, and you just seem to think the think and talk the talk. THAT is the stuff I am referring to when I observe your joylessness. The fact that I have scibbled a few songs involving characters who face sad scenarios really has nothing to do with it.

A real "joyless" meeting of the brothers and sisters in Rome Italy.
(typical of our table meetings)

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