Divination

Originally posted by sonship
Fulfilled prophecy adds to my persuasion that I am on the right track to believe the Bible. The total absence of this supporting rationale I have never experienced. So I don't know how I would think in that event.

And how does you saying "So I don't know how I would think in the event (that the prophecy didn't come true)" strengthen your assertion that something that hasn't happened yet in Jerusalem is somehow a "Bible prophecy being fulfilled"?

You have made the assertion about something that hasn't come true yet, and when asked about it, you offer the fact that you do not know how you would feel if your prediction turns out to be untrue... as some kind of supporting argument?

Have you found "arguments" like these have ever 'worked' on anyone other than a person who already believes everything you believe?

Originally posted by FMF
And how does you saying "So I don't know how I would think in the event (that the prophecy didn't come true)" strengthen your assertion that something that hasn't happened yet in Jerusalem is somehow a "Bible prophecy being fulfilled"?

You have made the assertion about something that hasn't come true yet, and when asked about it, you offer the fact that you ...[text shortened]... se have ever 'worked' on anyone other than a person who already believes everything you believe?

While I contemplate this last gem of a question, you answer one for me.

About what is the approximate count of the number of questions you need to ask the typical Christian to assure yourself that there is absolutely nothing at all to what we believe ?

Under 10?
Between 10 and say 30 ?
Over 60?
Over 150?

Originally posted by FMF

And how does you saying "So I don't know how I would think in the event (that the prophecy didn't come true)" strengthen your assertion that something that hasn't happened yet in Jerusalem is somehow a "Bible prophecy being fulfilled"?

I used the phrase "being fulfilled" not "has been fulfilled" as far as the third temple is concerned.

You have made the assertion about something that hasn't come true yet,

No I didn't. I used the phrase to indicate in progress - "being fulfilled".

Have you found "arguments" like these have ever 'worked' on anyone other than a person who already believes everything you believe?

The argument was about something in progress. Yes, technically the prophecy is not YET fulfilled.

And if I am wrong for the foreseeable moment, then I am wrong. Right?

If people are already persuaded and something additional is proposed, that in itself does not make what was believed in, necessarily not true.

A stubborn or gullible person may also be correct about something.

Originally posted by sonship
I used the phrase "being fulfilled" not "has been fulfilled" as far as the third temple is concerned.

Hypothetically speaking, will you still count your claim as being correct right now about the prophesy "being fulfilled" [at this present time] if, in fact, it isn't fulfilled for, say, another 2,000 years?

Originally posted by FMF
Hypothetically speaking, will you still count your claim as being correct right now about the prophesy "being fulfilled" [at this present time] if, in fact, it isn't fulfilled for, say, another 2,000 years?

Its your turn to answer.

About what is the approximate count of the number of questions you need to ask the typical Christian to assure yourself that there is absolutely nothing at all to what we believe ?

Under 10?
Between 10 and say 30 ?
Over 60?
Over 150?

Originally posted by sonship
About what is the approximate count of the number of questions you need to ask the typical Christian to assure yourself that there is absolutely nothing at all to what we believe ?

Under 10?
Between 10 and say 30 ?
Over 60?
Over 150?

This pouting reply is just you dodging.

Originally posted by FMF
This pouting reply is just you dodging.

I didn't think you'd answer.

I guess no amount of the number of questions assures you of the complete unreality of the gospel message.

Originally posted by sonship
I didn't think you'd answer.

I guess no amount of the number of questions assures you of the complete unreality of the gospel message.

Silly deflections like this are evidence of nothing except your wounded vanity, sonship.

Originally posted by FMF
Silly deflections like this are evidence of nothing except your wounded vanity, sonship.

I wonder if someone's wounded vanity changes the truth.
Probably doesn't make any difference.

Christ is coming whether I am weeping because of wounded vanity or giggling because of compliments and flattery. My feelings don't effect it.

Now, I am going to go back and see if some of the more interesting questions I might address for some reader's sake. Can't promise I'll find any more interesting questions. But I may see some points that some people would be helped by their addressing.

I recall a question about whether a poster could be a genuine - no belief in God whatsoever, Atheist. The real strong kind of atheist, that is.

I think I was asked in essence "Well could Ghost be that kind of real strong Atheist?"

The answer is that because the word of God tells me that there is a potential for this kind of person, I believe that someone could be this kind of person. That is saying in their heart "There is no God."

"The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. " (Psalm 14:1a)

There must be some people who are genuine deniers of the existence of God. It is not just in public posture they deny God as a kind of right of passage in a society of unbelief. But they have said in their heart "There is no God."

The Bible says this the fool who says this. So I should believe that some genuine fools actually exist. That means fools of this particular type.

I don't think I need to spend any more time on that.

The New Testament does have some discussion of "signs" of the second coming of Christ. Unlike the predictions of say Jean Dixon or Nostradamus which have no moral implication to them, the signs of the second coming of Christ always carry a teaching effecting Godliness, Christ-likeness, and spiritual development.

The New Testament signs are not given solely that one may have mere information that is correct. Rather they urge the knower to draw closer to God.

Mastering the predictions of Nostradamus requires no change in one's moral being. You just master the secret codes and get the right information. Who you are ethically, morally, or spiritually is of little to no significance. Only getting into the "knowing" matters.

At this point I would say that too many Christians may in fact treat Bible prophecy in a similar way, that is purely a matter of being in the know with the right information. That attitude is not the tone in which Bible prophecy is given. If we are seeking God and the truth we don't have to follow their example. Rather we can follow the example of the Christians in the New Testament themselves, for whom prophecy acted to draw them closer to Christ, nearer to God.

Prophecy urged them to be ready. Prophecy inspired them to prepare to meet the Lord.

IE.

" And let us consider one another so as to incite one another to love and good works.

Not abandoning our own assembling together, as the custom with some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more as you see the day drawing near." (Hebrews 10:24,25)

No doubt the writer is think of signs indicating Christ's coming again. But the reaction he encourages goes beyond just getting it "right". That Christians then come together in the community of love and exhort one another for high ethical living. This is the intended reaction the writer emphasizes.

Here again in John's letter:

" And now little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming.

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness also has been begotten of Him." (1 John 2:28,29)

"... Everyone who has this hope set on Him purifies himself, even as He is." (1 John 3:2)

Christ's coming is the subject. Reaction to this should be living righteously for boldness before Him, purifying oneself, (context of the epistle includes confession, cleansing of the blood of redemption and abiding in the Spirit of Christ).

In addition to the "hope" then is the preparation of living in righteousness as even the Christian received the second birth in order to do.

" ... everyone who practices righteousness also has been begotten of Him."

The New Testament contains prophecy. The prophecies are usually accompanied with exhortations to preparation of a moral nature. The prophecies are given as an incentive to open up more of one's heart and life to the influence of the Holy Spirit.

Occult divination may include technical techniques for determining secretive information. But the goal is usually just obtaining the information.

The New Testament prophecies have the emphasis of increase in spiritual life.
They should not be handled in the way of just supplying correct data.

Misuse of Bible prophecy will just emphasis knowledge.
Proper use of Bible prophecy will have the characteristic of imparting spiritual life.

One is merely eating from the tree of knowledge.
The other should be the spiritual nourishment of eating of the tree of life to increase in God, increase in the Holy Spirit for godly living.

To illustrate what I have written in the last few posts, I would refer to the last two passages of the whole Bible.

The 66 books of the Bible end in this way:

" He who testifies these things says, Yes, I come quickly.
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen." (Revelation 22:20,21)

Everyone knows that the last book of the Bible Revelation contains a lot details about the close of the age, the second coming of Christ, the future and destiny of the Israel, the church and the whole world.

These last two sentences conclude the prophecies with Jesus Himself saying that He is coming. And the writer adds his "Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!"

But then the very last sentence is a reminder that the empowering of Christ, the enabling of Christ, the presence and supply of Christ is with the believer -

[b]"The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints"

In other words all this prophecy and prediction still requires that the believers be supplied with the enjoyment of Christ to uphold them, to enable them to pass through or escape whatever is predicted in this book. We still need Christ to be our grace.

"The grace of the Lord be with all the saints."

The last word is not to merely look at the information.
The last word is not merely to possess the correct data, to be in the "knowing" that this, that, or the other thing is going to happen. Rather the writer points the believer to the experience of Jesus Christ living in them to uphold them and enable them to live -

"The grace ..." . It is the enjoyment of Christ being everything we need, that occupies the final exhortation of the Revelation. "The grace of the Lord Jesus be with the saints. Amen."

He points to Christ the Person being available to be with the believers. We can forget all the details. We should not forget that Christ in us is everything we need. The empowering grace of the Lord Jesus will supply the Christian with all she or he needs regardless of the details of the prophecies.

Pure occult divination care only for the correct decoded data for knowledge. The knowledge itself is enough to have because it assumes possessing it you know what to do. And this is mainly just WAIT.

The Bible prophecy ends with a call to focus of living Christ, being empowered by Christ and enjoying the grace of Christ to live a godly life.

Originally posted by sonship

"The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. " (Psalm 14:1a)

There must be some people who are genuine deniers of the existence of God. It is not just in public posture they deny God as a kind of right of passage in a society of unbelief. But they have said in their heart "There is no God."

The Bible says this the fool who says this. So I should believe that some genuine fools actually exist. That means fools of this particular type.

I don't think I need to spend any more time on that.

Do you believe, when you are calling people "fools" in public like this, that they are going to accept or somehow realize that they are "fools" because you have typed out the words of Psalm 14:1a and made it bold text? If not, then for who's benefit or consumption are you doing it? The answer seems to be [1] yourself, and [2] people who already share your beliefs [the choir you preach to, in other words].

Do you understand why people might see this - calling people "fools" because they believe different things from you, and citing a fragment of ancient Hebrew text - as little more than a kind of vanity on your part?

Now, I am going to go back and see if some of the more interesting questions I might address for some reader's sake. Can't promise I'll find any more interesting questions. But I may see some points that some people would be helped by their addressing.

Do you sincerely think typing out the words of Psalm 14:1a and then calling people "fools" on that basis, is helping anyone?

Originally posted by FMF

Do you believe, when you are calling people "fools" in public like this, that they are going to accept or somehow realize that they are "fools"

If you would like to alter the verse to read something else you are free to do that.

Here are some other translations.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For the choir director. Davidic. The fool says in his heart, "God does not exist."

GOD'S WORD® Translation
[For the choir director; by David.] Godless fools say in their hearts, "There is no God."

American Standard Version
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works; There is none that doeth good.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Unto the end, a psalm for David. The fool hath said in his heart: There is no God, They are corrupt, and are become abominable in their ways: there is none that doth good, no not one.

Darby Bible Translation
{To the chief Musician. [A Psalm] of David.} The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They have corrupted themselves, they have done abominable works: there is none that doeth good.

English Revised Version
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works; there is none that doeth good.

Webster's Bible Translation
To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

World English Bible
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt. They have done abominable works. There is none who does good.

Young's Literal Translation
To the Overseer. -- By David. A fool hath said in his heart, 'God is not;' They have done corruptly, They have done abominable actions, There is not a doer of good.

All the Hebrew translations to English I explore tonight say "fool".

Personally, when I read passages about the fool I always recall that the Bible says that there is more hope for a fool then for one who is wise in his own eyes.

This passage comes after many sentences the writer has used to describe fools. Surprisingly he concludes his discussion with this:

" Do you see a man who is wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him." (Proverbs 26:12)

Though it is not comforting to be thought of as a fool, it is not a hopeless case.

because you have typed out the words of Psalm 14:1a and made it bold text?

I have a custom of always putting in bold my quotations from the Scripture.
Sometimes though I may not do so.

It sounds like you are searching for a complaint .. a complaint in search of an error, it sounds like.

So I speak the the frank truth from God's word. We may not like it. But sometimes the truth told in love can be of a scolding tone. The Bible's tone here is frank, honest, faithful - "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God."

If not, then for who's benefit or consumption are you doing it?

I don't know who may benefit. But I feel to be faithful to the Scripture and deliver the honest and frank word it speaks about believing in the heart that God does not exist. It is foolish. It makes one "the fool".

But like I said, the Word of God is very balanced and also says that there is more hope for a fool then for a man who is wise in his own eyes, thinking he has nothing to learn from anyone, being totally self-sufficient.

The answer seems to be [1] yourself, and [2] people who already share your beliefs [the choir you preach to, in other words].

I don't hold that belief. You should find some atheists or disgruntled anti-theists and announce that to them about me.

Do you understand why people might see this - calling people "fools" because they believe different things from you, and citing a fragment of ancient Hebrew text - as little more than a kind of vanity on your part?

I understand:

1.) Someone may be offended by Psalm 14:1

2.) I understand that some may look back one day and admit "you know the Bible was right. I was a fool to be an Atheist."

3.) I understand that paraphrasing the Psalm to be more palatable to you would likely make no difference. You'd probably find something something else you don't like.

Now, I am going to go back and see if some of the more interesting questions I might address for some reader's sake. Can't promise I'll find any more interesting questions. But I may see some points that some people would be helped by their addressing.

Do you sincerely think typing out the words of Psalm 14:1a and then calling people "fools" on that basis, is helping anyone?

I think it is helpful for men to hear that the word of God says.
Sometimes we need to use tact. Sometimes we need to be faithful and frank about what is actually foolish according to God's word.

I also think it is encouraging and helpful to add to that it is certainly not hopeless to be a fool as we are told in Proverbs.

But if it makes you feel any better, or if it does not do anything to make you feel better, I would gladly confess that this is only one kind of foolishness. I am a fool probably in some other areas of my life. Since I am still in the process of sanctification, I dare not say that I am perfected yet and have absolutely no areas of foolish thought in me.

I have no problem confessing to the Lord Jesus

"Lord I know that in THIS thing, I am still a fool. Lord come in. Lord be my very wisdom in this area of my thinking. Thankyou Lord Jesus. Amen."