@secondson saidI'm going to go one step further and throw Romans 2:15 into the thread (and then hide in the corner)
I read nowhere in the scriptures that one is saved on the basis of "diligently seeking God". It's not there!
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"They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them."
@ghost-of-a-duke saidMay I use you as one example in my future stated opinion? At least what I think I know? As I really don't.
I'm going to go one step further and throw Romans 2:15 into the thread (and then hide in the corner)
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"They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them."
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWell, of course it sounds as though you might have something there, but I will have to throw a monkey wrench into your inference.
I'm going to go one step further and throw Romans 2:15 into the thread (and then hide in the corner)
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"They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them."
While that verse may appear to be saying they're saved because they "show that the work of the law is written on their hearts", it's not saying anything about them being saved because of it, it doesn't say that, nor is it inferred.
The passage from which you isolated that verse is not a "salvation" passage per se, technically speaking.
If the scriptures teach, and they do, that "salvation" CANNOT be earned, that it was procured by Jesus on the cross, without our input or by our works, that eternal life is a gift, that one must believe in Jesus and trust in Him alone for salvation and forgiveness of sins, then merely being good and obeying ones conscience won't get one saved.
@secondson saidAre we in agreement sir that the underlying thrust of Romans 2 is that it really doesn't matter if you are a Jew or a Gentile, that God loves all humans the same?
Well, of course it sounds as though you might have something there, but I will have to throw a monkey wrench into your inference.
While that verse may appear to be saying they're saved because they "show that the work of the law is written on their hearts", it's not saying anything about them being saved because of it, it doesn't say that, nor is it inferred.
The pass ...[text shortened]... ion and forgiveness of sins, then merely being good and obeying ones conscience won't get one saved.
And if so, why wouldn't an omnipotent deity save everyone?
@kingdavid403 saidGo for it.
May I use you as one example in my future stated opinion? At least what I think I know? As I really don't.
I will post my position sometime tomorrow.
In the mean-time, I want to post this on the Oneness of God.
I want to make clearly certain to all, that in no way am I attempting to change Scriptures, or the meanings of them, or attempting to commit heresy.
Please ponder on His Oneness; and, I hope this post can help some.
This post of scriptures does relate to my position.
I really will not be back from now until tomorrow, as I have things that need to be done.
God Bless. 🙂
Post:
God's Oneness.
God’s Oneness
[John 14:7-11 NKJV] 7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him." 8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us." 9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own [authority]; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 "Believe Me that I [am] in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
Now, Turn it around as if it is the Father Speaking of Son; as They are One: (paraphrased)
If you had known me, you would have known My Son also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him. Philip said to Him (Father) show us the Son, and it is sufficient for us. The Father said to him, Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Son, so how can you say, ‘show us the Son?
Do you not believe that I am in the Son, and the Son is in Me? The Words that I Speak to you, I Speak on My [authority]; but the Son Who dwells in Me does My Works.
Believe Me that I am in the Son and the Son in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the Works themselves.
Thoughts?
See ya all tomorrow. 🙂
@secondson saidJesus said no such thing. Your church has deceived you. Here are the words of Jesus:
If the scriptures teach, and they do, that "salvation" CANNOT be earned, that it was procured by Jesus on the cross, without our input or by our works, that eternal life is a gift, that one must believe in Jesus and trust in Him alone for salvation and forgiveness of sins, then merely being good and obeying ones conscience won't get one saved.
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. (Matthew 16:27 KJV)
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29 KJV)
Good works are REQUIRED, otherwise there is no eternal life. Eternal life is the end result of TWO events:
1. The death of Christ which paved the way for ALL to have a chance to inherit eternal life in the Kingdom of God
2. The good works and righteous life of a person.
Paul went to great lengths to explain to saved, born again Christian Saints who had the gifts of the Holy Spirit that they will be cast out of the Kingdom of God if they did not live righteously.
-Removed-I think we are saying the same thing.
Yes, salvation is free. It is the work of Christ on the cross, a work that no one deserves.
Eternal life is only for those who live righteously.
Those who live sinfully will be cast out
That Ephesians passage actually says that good works are a requirement.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidLegitimate questions.
Are we in agreement sir that the underlying thrust of Romans 2 is that it really doesn't matter if you are a Jew or a Gentile, that God loves all humans the same?
And if so, why wouldn't an omnipotent deity save everyone?
We are in agreement. God is in the business of saving souls no matter their race, gender, nationality, age etc etc. And God is not a repecter of persons and loves everyone with a love beyond human comprehension.
In answer to your second question; why doesn't everyone believe God and be saved? It's not going to happen is it? If God saved people arbitrarily, then what's the purpose in having free will? If God did save people without the consent of their will, we would essentially be nothing more than a plant.
Caveat - the above is based on my perspective, and I am a flawed human being incapable of making inerrant assertions. 😉