Does one need to believe in Jesus for salvation.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
We are all flawed human beings sir.

The way I see it (and perhaps one of the front runners for my atheism) Is that an all-powerful father has the ability to save all the humans he loves. And yet has a caveat of His own.

Think of a human father who has 3 sons and loves all of them equally, although one of those sons doesn't love him back, perhaps even refuses to ...[text shortened]... ther. Now say all 3 sons fall in a lake and are drowning. Doesn't the loving father save all 3 sons?

But God isn't human.

The sign says "no swimming". God reaches out His hand to save the drowning, but the one drowning must choose to take hold of His hand.

@kingdavid403 said
@divegeester
Just a note: I have my outline done and I'm working on the final draft. It's HUGH dive. You may be cussing me for eternity instead of thanking me.

😛 😛 😛 🙂 lol...

If the first sentence doesn’t engage me I won’t read the rest of it.

I may skim it for douchbaggery if you’re lucky.

@rajk999 said
I think we are saying the same thing.
Yes, salvation is free. It is the work of Christ on the cross, a work that no one deserves.
Eternal life is only for those who live righteously.
Those who live sinfully will be cast out

That Ephesians passage actually says that good works are a requirement.

Utter head in the sand by you.

Of course we’re not saying the same thing.
Of course no one “deserves” salvation.

No, the passage in Ephesians doesn’t say “good works are a requirement”, not in the slightest, not at all, in no way, explicitly not.

I chose it specifically because it says exactly the opposite.

@rajk999 said
Of course you are correct. The words of Jesus do not feature prominently in your doctrine. Jesus was asked the question about eternal life and His answer bears no resemblance to what you think eternal life is about.

One is a fool if they think they can earn salvation. Jesus DIED for our sins, we didn't. Jesus paid the price of our redemption in full all by Himself.

Eternal life is a gift.

Jesus is most definitely and preeminently central in my doctrine, and it matters nil to me what you say in contradiction to that.

@rajk999 said
Of course you are correct. The words of Jesus do not feature prominently in your doctrine. Jesus was asked the question about eternal life and His answer bears no resemblance to what you think eternal life is about.

After much study, I have to say, that I feel the opponents of my position on this thread are 96% correct; and, that I am around 4% correct.
I studied Romans chapter 9 and 10 last night (and others); and, it spiritually explains how some get salvation, and how some do not. It's really up to God; and, it says how He (God) does harden some people into disobedience, to bring others and the disobedient to Him. It's really all up to God. Faith.
Scriptures are extremely clear that God wishes all to come to the knowledge of Him; so that they may be saved through Christ Jesus.
No one is saved but by Jesus.
If one believes in Jesus and confesses Him with their mouth, they will be saved etc.
Now, I called two different close friends last night; and, both agreed with me that one is saved the moment Jesus starts drawing them towards Him whether they know Jesus or not.
If one is diligently seeking out God, then they are seeking Jesus. There's no two ways about it with the Oneness of God.
However, my hypothetical situation only covers a small moment of time in anyone's salvation journey. Scriptures are clear, anyone is saved if they believe in Jesus, seek Him, and most importantly, remain in Him.
I know in my heart that one is saved the moment they start seeking God. I cannot physically prove it; other than the scriptures that tell us of God's love, mercy, and forgiveness.
If they are truly seeking God, then they will meet Jesus. There is No way around it with God's Oneness.
It is ALL up to God.
The scripture that says: "God will have mercy on whom He chooses" (paraphrased), This scripture to me is partly saying that there will be some saved who never met Jesus yet. Other than this, I have nothing but God's love and mercy; and my faith.
I want to thank ALL of you who have participated in this thread so far. I know that I have learned much from God through ALL of YOU in this thread. I do feel that I was getting somewhat off track; however, through you here God snapped me back in place some. Thank you ALL and God Bless. 🙂

My hypothetical situation is not so hypothetical.
July 30th of 2019 my best friend killed himself by shooting himself through his heart.
God was clearly drawing my friend closer to Him.
My friend was sober for three plus years after having a drinking problem like I use to have.
He was praying to God often and his life was clearly getting better.
Then, something extremely hurtful happened, he got drunk after being sober for three years; and, he killed himself.
My wife and I had talked with him about Jesus several times. However, his relationship with God did not get to the point that he was calling Jesus God. He prayed to God.
I did not mention this here because I did not want anyone's answers here to be swayed in an attempt to console me. That's over.
It's ALL up to God! We must have faith in Him. We must trust that no one will be lost that are seeking Him; As scriptures state.
Thoughts?
Edit:
Now, in the case of Muslims, Hindus, etc. They ALL believe in Jesus. They all know that Jesus is a great Prophet and Deity of God. They worship Him, have holidays in His name, etc.
With the Muslims (in my opinion) they are the descendants of Ishmael. They are Abraham's descendants. God promised Abraham that his descendants would be saved because of Abraham's faith.
Muslims believe and know that Jesus is the Messiah; and, that it is Jesus coming back at the end to judge the world etc.
I could go into this further; however, they do believe in Jesus. Just not in the same way a typical Christian does.
Thoughts?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
We are all flawed human beings sir.

The way I see it (and perhaps one of the front runners for my atheism) Is that an all-powerful father has the ability to save all the humans he loves. And yet has a caveat of His own.

Think of a human father who has 3 sons and loves all of them equally, although one of those sons doesn't love him back, perhaps even refuses to ...[text shortened]... ther. Now say all 3 sons fall in a lake and are drowning. Doesn't the loving father save all 3 sons?

In my study's last night on this issue, God led me to Romans chapter 9 and 10. It spiritually does answers your and my questions here on salvation.
I had to read it slow and extremely careful, to get the spiritual message conveyed by God.
Give it a read sometime when you have time. I'm sure you will not be disappointed. 🙂

@secondson said
But God isn't human.

The sign says "no swimming". God reaches out His hand to save the drowning, but the one drowning must choose to take hold of His hand.

No, God isn't human, making it even more inexplicable why He wouldn't just save all humanity without any conditions attached. Why does an all-powerful and all-loving deity need conditions? (Especially when a mortal father doesn't).

@kingdavid403 said
In my study's last night on this issue, God led me to Romans chapter 9 and 10. It spiritually does answers your and my questions here on salvation.
I had to read it slow and extremely careful, to get the spiritual message conveyed by God.
Give it a read sometime when you have time. I'm sure you will not be disappointed. 🙂

I will, but am interested to hear the grounds for your assertion, 'God led me.' How do you know that?

(And sorry for the loss of your friend).

@secondson said
One is a fool if they think they can earn salvation. Jesus DIED for our sins, we didn't. Jesus paid the price of our redemption in full all by Himself.

Eternal life is a gift.

Jesus is most definitely and preeminently central in my doctrine, and it matters nil to me what you say in contradiction to that.

I never said anything about earning salvation, neither did Jesus, neither any of the Apostles. The expression 'earning salvation' is not in the Bible. The word 'earn' is not in the bible. The expression is a fabricated phrase used by the church to describe an unbiblical doctrine.

What Jesus and all the Apostles did say is that there are things that must be done to get eternal life in the Kingdom of God. Nobody gets it by professing mouth worship.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I will, but am interested to hear the grounds for your assertion, 'God led me.' How do you know that?

(And sorry for the loss of your friend).

Thank you Sir Duke,
Well, seeing the I was studying God's Holy Word with praying, I know that it was Him that led me to those scriptures. Seeing that they answered my, and your, questions perfectly on salvation.
God (Jesus) are the living Word.
If one is seeking and living it, one cannot go wrong. 🙂 Spiritual FAITH.

@divegeester said
Utter head in the sand by you.

Of course we’re not saying the same thing.
Of course no one “deserves” salvation.

No, the passage in Ephesians doesn’t say “good works are a requirement”, not in the slightest, not at all, in no way, explicitly not.

I chose it specifically because it says exactly the opposite.

Paul says in Eph 2 that Christians are created to do good works. It would mean that if a professed Christian did no good works then his faith is dead. Dead faith leads to damnation and no eternal life.

Paul further drove this point home in the event where people [like you], do not accept the requirement to do good works and live righteously. The point is made in Eph 5 .... there is NO eternal life.

Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (Ephesians 5:1-5 KJV)

Born again Saints in Christ are cast out of the Kingdom of God for not living righteously. Saved yes, Eternal life, no.

@rajk999 said
I never said anything about earning salvation, neither did Jesus, neither any of the Apostles. The expression 'earning salvation' is not in the Bible. The word 'earn' is not in the bible. The expression is a fabricated phrase used by the church to describe an unbiblical doctrine.

What Jesus and all the Apostles did say is that there are things that must be done to get eternal life in the Kingdom of God. Nobody gets it by professing mouth worship.

I must agree with you here. If one says they have faith, but they have no works, there faith is dead faith. If one has faith, they WILL have good works also.
If ones faith causes them to do many good works, then they are saved and on the right path.
Faith and works go hand in hand. One cannot separate the two. If you say you have faith, you will have good works. If you spend extra time doing good works, this shows all that you have good faith.

@kingdavid403 said
I must agree with you here. If one says they have faith, but they have no works, there faith is dead faith. If one has faith, they WILL have good works also.
If ones faith causes them to do many good works, then they are saved and on the right path.
Faith and works go hand in hand. One cannot separate the two. If you say you have faith, you will have good works. If you spend extra time doing good works, this shows all that you have good faith.

I would not say it that way. James made it clear that there is a difference between faith and works. They are in fact two separate things. Faith alone is dead. therefore it is possible to have faith [ie to profess belief], without living righteously. Paul said this several times.

Also the process of being saved takes two steps:
1. Christ's work on the cross
2. The life of professed follower.

Again these are two separate things.

@rajk999 said
Paul says in Eph 2 that Christians are created to do good works. It would mean that if a professed Christian did no good works then his faith is dead. Dead faith leads to damnation and no eternal life.

Paul further drove this point home in the event where people [like you], do not accept the requirement to do good works and live righteously. The point is made in Eph 5 ... ...[text shortened]... Christ are cast out of the Kingdom of God for not living righteously. Saved yes, Eternal life, no.

This is all the unequivocal evidence and straightforward rationale I need...

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Thanks anyway my friend.

@rajk999 said
I would not say it that way. James made it clear that there is a difference between faith and works. They are in fact two separate things. Faith alone is dead. therefore it is possible to have faith [ie to profess belief], without living righteously. Paul said this several times.

Also the process of being saved takes two steps:
1. Christ's work on the cross
2. The life of professed follower.

Again these are two separate things.

Well, I disagree here. Keep striving for the upward call in Christ Jesus, you will find the truth.
[James 2:17-26 NKJV] 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent [them] out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."