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If you ask 10 Christians to describe their 'relationship with Jesus' they will give you 10 different answers. What most Christians dont know [like Kelly Jay and Suzainne] is that that expression does not exist in the Bible, but they will claim that it is the most important thing. Knightmeister gave a very vague explanation of what 'relationship with Jesus' means.
What exactly does that relationship entail .. the details ? Can anyone answer that?
I remember Jaywill once said that he spoke to Christ, and Christ speaks to him, literally Christ speaking to him, not in the figurative sense. Not through the Bible but literally. He also says he has seen Christ. Can anyone else say that?
Christ said that you have a relationship with him by the way you treat others. If you see the poor needy hungry widowed etc and you help, then you have helped him. Thats the way you KNOW Christ and have a relationship with Christ .. through loving, helping and giving others in need. And Christ said clearly that he will decide on who gets eternal life or not, by the way they treat others.
I have heard many claim to have a relationship with Christ.. a personal relationship .. they go to church, they talk to Christ, they shout and clap and sing. But the next day they they see Christ sitting on the sidewalk, hungry and begging and they turn the other way. That is the typical relationship that the typical Christian has with Christ.
Originally posted by Rajk999No one has denied doing the things God wants, but anyone can do things.
If you ask 10 Christians to describe their [b]'relationship with Jesus' they will give you 10 different answers. What most Christians dont know [like Kelly Jay and Suzainne] is that that expression does not exist in the Bible, but they will claim that it is the most important thing. Knightmeister gave a very vague explanation of what 'relationship with J ...[text shortened]... he other way. That is the typical relationship that the typical Christian has with Christ.[/b]
Unless you want to say you have to earn your way to God than there is
something more! Christianity isn't a pie in the sky religion, where you get God
only after you die, it is for NOW. When Jesus died He made away for us to go to
God to get to know Him in our lives now. You should stop and ponder these
things. Go to God and ask Him about this, I'm not asking you to take anything
from me or Suzainne or even change your life in any fashion other than turn
and ask God for something more, for a deeper walk with Him that you have
now. If you feel that is wrong or bad so be it.
Kelly
Originally posted by knightmeisterI think you probably want to know why Christianity stands out for me as the Truth?
It's not the "rest of the world's religious folk" who need to re-tune it's only non- Christians. Having said this I do accept that many non Christians are much closer to Christ than they realize. For example , I would say that Ghandi (non Christian) was more tuned into God than someone like Pat Robertson (Christian)
Much depends on whether you want ...[text shortened]... , death and the plight of mankind in an authentic way. In Christ God gets his hands dirty.
Close. How do you know it is you who has the correct frequency and how do you know the other worlds religions who have got it wrong?
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Originally posted by Proper KnobSimple. Exclusive claims. Logically one would expect the right frequency to proclaim itself as the "right" frequency and point out that others are simply wrong.
[b]I think you probably want to know why Christianity stands out for me as the Truth?
Close. How do you know it is you who has the correct frequency and how do you know the other worlds religions who have got it wrong?[/b]
Jesus does this. Mohammed for example does not. Islam lets itself down by claiming Jesus was a great prophet and a supreme example of God's character. They patronize Him and sidestep his unique claims. Read what Jesus said and then think about how exclusive his claims are. If you look carefully you will see that he is very bold and says it very clearly in no uncertain terms. He is deliberately forcing us to make a decision about Him . This is EXACTLY the sort of thing you would expect the REAL living God to claim.
Here's an example , "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters." Matt 12:30
The line in the sand is drawn. This is not easy to hear but at the same time it's compelling. Jesus would not say to Mohammed " You are a great prophet and full of God and I think people might get a lot out of following your ways etc etc" I think Jesus would say to Mohammed " Follow me Mohammed , I am the Way and the Truth , either become one of my sheep or stand against me ". He would claim absolute authority over Mohammed's life - which , again , is exactly what you would expect from a REAL God.
The amazing thing about Jesus is that even Islam recognizes Him as a fantastic example of humility , love and grace. Whilst at the same time ignoring the sheer arrogance of His claims (unless of course He WAS the Son of God - then His claims would not be arrogant , they would simply be accurate)
Originally posted by knightmeisterYour claim is nothing more than circular reasoning. You might have well have just said - 'Christianity is tuned to the correct frequency because Christianity says so'.
Simple. Exclusive claims. Logically one would expect the right frequency to proclaim itself as the "right" frequency and point out that others are simply wrong.
Jesus does this. Mohammed for example does not. Islam lets itself down by claiming Jesus was a great prophet and a supreme example of God's character. They patronize Him and sidestep his un ...[text shortened]... Son of God - then His claims would not be arrogant , they would simply be accurate)
Just because someone claims to be corect it doesn't mean they are. I could start my own religion and claim i am tuned to the correct frequency and state that every other religion is out of tune. When somone comes along and asks me how i know i'm correct i'll just say -
'Simple. Exclusive claims. Logically one would expect the right frequency to proclaim itself as the "right" frequency and point out that others are simply wrong.'
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Originally posted by Proper KnobYou missed the point. The question assumes that someone has already got to the point where they feel that God exists but they want to try and figure out which religion to follow.
Your claim is nothing more than circular reasoning. You might have well have just said - 'Christianity is tuned to the correct frequency because Christianity says so'.
Just because someone claims to be corect it doesn't mean they are. I could start my own religion and claim i am tuned to the correct frequency and state that every other religion is ou o proclaim itself as the "right" frequency and point out that others are simply wrong.'
Imagine you are at a party and 3 guests turn up all purporting to be "Jeff". You feel certain that Jeff exists as a person and that He is at the party. Then the Jeffs start talking.
One of them says "we are all kind of Jeffs - it doesn't really matter because all road lead to Jeff"
One of them says "I'm Jeff , you should believe in me , but this other Jeff to my right is a really cool dude and He's a great prophet of Jeff "
The last one says " No , I am the real Jeff and Jeff alone. These other two are at best cheap counterfeits and at worst imposters. Do not listen to them because I am the only Jeff here"
Who are you going to be most convinced by?
EDIT - Bear in mind that this is just one argument - there are many others - all of which combined provide a reasonable argument. I don't base my "frequency tuning " just on this one position.
Originally posted by Proper KnobI could start my own religion and claim i am tuned to the correct frequency and state that every other religion is out of tune.
Your claim is nothing more than circular reasoning. You might have well have just said - 'Christianity is tuned to the correct frequency because Christianity says so'.
Just because someone claims to be corect it doesn't mean they are. I could start my own religion and claim i am tuned to the correct frequency and state that every other religion is ou ...[text shortened]... o proclaim itself as the "right" frequency and point out that others are simply wrong.'
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People do and have done this and Jesus predicted this would happen. He got there first.
Originally posted by twhiteheadThat's right. However, his relationship with Judaism is different because He saw himself as the fulfillment of Judaism rather than different from it. For Jesus , Judaism wasn't "wrong" , it was just incomplete.
Actually no, he doesn't. Despite his message differing quite substantially from Jewish teachings, he carefully avoids directly saying that the Jews have it wrong.
Also , I don't think that Jesus would dismiss Islam as totally incorrect because it has aspects of reverence for God's holiness , strong moral codes etc etc.
Just because a radio is not properly tuned in to the right frequency doesn't mean that it can't pick up some kind of signal.
Originally posted by Rajk999Thats the way you KNOW Christ and have a relationship with Christ .. through loving, helping and giving others in need. And Christ said clearly that he will decide on who gets eternal life or not, by the way they treat others.
If you ask 10 Christians to describe their [b]'relationship with Jesus' they will give you 10 different answers. What most Christians dont know [like Kelly Jay and Suzainne] is that that expression does not exist in the Bible, but they will claim that it is the most important thing. Knightmeister gave a very vague explanation of what 'relationship with J ...[text shortened]... he other way. That is the typical relationship that the typical Christian has with Christ.[/b]
-------rajk99----------------------------------
But here's the problem. If we help others and give to others in need because we are trying to "get" eternal life then what we do is self serving and not motivated by love.
If you Rajk are treating are treating other people well because you fear that if you don't then you won't "get" eternal life from Christ then is this really love or just fear?
If we are assured of eternal life by receiving God's love and grace in our hearts then naturally we will reach out to help others. Our motivation will be love and love alone.
The question is - Do we do good works BECAUSE we are saved or IN ORDER to be saved?
Do you help people with an ulterior motive and one eye on your own salvation?
Originally posted by knightmeisterSo you are retracting your original post? Why cant you keep your story straight?
That's right. However, his relationship with Judaism is different because He saw himself as the fulfillment of Judaism rather than different from it. For Jesus , Judaism wasn't "wrong" , it was just incomplete.
Also , I don't think that Jesus would dismiss Islam as totally incorrect because it has aspects of reverence for God's holiness , strong m ...[text shortened]... tuned in to the right frequency doesn't mean that it can't pick up some kind of signal.
Originally posted by knightmeisterAgain, for the umpteenth time, I dont discuss what I personally do on the internet with people I dont know. Neither do I ever ask others what they do regarding good works. So your questions to me about what I do and why I do it, will remain unanswered. You are out of place.
Thats the way you KNOW Christ and have a relationship with Christ .. through loving, helping and giving others in need. And Christ said clearly that he will decide on who gets eternal life or not, by the way they treat others.
-------rajk99----------------------------------
But here's the problem. If we help others and give to others in need beca ...[text shortened]... aved?
Do you help people with an ulterior motive and one eye on your own salvation?
Moving on, I will tell you that peoples motives will be judged by Christ. So thats another topic I wont dwell on.
Next there is a specific formula involving both faith and good works which will lead to eternal life, upon Christ's return. Nobody has salvation now, Salvation will be given to those worthy and those who have lived according to the commandments of Christ, when Christ returns. That is very clear in the Bible and I can provide literally dozens of clear statements by Christ, Paul and the Apostles about how failure to follow Christ's commandments will lead to damnation. Its not optional. Its essential.
Please let me know if you want the references. I would also like to see some supporting references for your conclusions.
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Originally posted by knightmeisterThere is insufficient information here to assign any greater weight of likelyhood to the proposition that any one of those "Jeff"s actually is Jeff. Perhaps the third knows he's a fraud, but like any fraud with a semblance of rationality he is trying to denounce the others so to take the heat off himself. Indeed your feeling that Jeff actually exists at the party could quite wasily be baseless.
You missed the point. The question assumes that someone has already got to the point where they feel that God exists but they want to try and figure out which religion to follow.
Imagine you are at a party and 3 guests turn up all purporting to be "Jeff". You feel certain that Jeff exists as a person and that He is at the party. Then the Jeffs s easonable argument. I don't base my "frequency tuning " just on this one position.
You seem to employ a crappy metric for deciding what is true and what isn't.
Originally posted by KellyJayIs the statement "faith without works is dead" in your Bible?
No one has denied doing the things God wants, but anyone can do things.
Unless you want to say you have to earn your way to God than there is
something more! Christianity isn't a pie in the sky religion, where you get God
only after you die, it is for NOW. When Jesus died He made away for us to go to
God to get to know Him in our lives now. You should s ...[text shortened]... r a deeper walk with Him that you have
now. If you feel that is wrong or bad so be it.
Kelly
Do you know that Christ and all the Apostles made similar statements?
You should stop and ponder these things.
Go to God and ask him about this.