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Originally posted by Rajk999Yep in my Bible, same Bible that has Jesus saying, ...depart from me I never knew you. You have a point?
Is the statement [b]"faith without works is dead" in your Bible?
Do you know that Christ and all the Apostles made similar statements?
You should stop and ponder these things.
Go to God and ask him about this.[/b]
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayYes, the point is that the ones who Christ knows are those who stop to help him when he is hungry, and naked ...
Yep in my Bible, same Bible that has Jesus saying, ...depart from me I never knew you. You have a point?
Kelly
Mat 25:35-36 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Those people are the ones Christ knows and its those people who Christ will reward. Those are the righteous people and they will be given eternal life when Christ returns.
Those who hear the words "depart from me .." ..
Matt 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Read it .. those who DO THE WILL OF GOD, will get salvation. Those who do not do the will of God [follow the commandments of Christ], will hear the words 'depart from me.
Read it again in Matt 25 ..
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(Matthew 25:41-46)
Read the reason why some will hear the words 'depart from me' ..
Did you read it ? They saw Christ naked, sick, in prison, thirsty and they turned the other way.
Originally posted by Rajk999Yep read it, and your point? I have already told you no one is saying do not
Yes, the point is that the ones who Christ knows are those who stop to help him when he is hungry, and naked ...
Mat 25:35-36 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Those ...[text shortened]... u read it ? They saw Christ naked, sick, in prison, thirsty and they turned the other way.
obey the Lord. I have told you also that there are people who do those things
who hate Jesus, does that make Him Lord over them in their eyes? I'm telling
you there is something more than just doing, a sweet fellowship with God is
available to us where we can come to Him and He to us. You find that offensive
for some reason?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayYou find good works offensive for some reason ?
Yep read it, and your point? I have already told you no one is saying do not
obey the Lord. I have told you also that there are people who do those things
who hate Jesus, does that make Him Lord over them in their eyes? I'm telling
you there is something more than just doing, a sweet fellowship with God is
available to us where we can come to Him and He to us. You find that offensive
for some reason?
Kelly
Originally posted by Rajk999Could you not at least talk hypothetically about what might be a good motivation for doing good works? Would love born as a result of being loved by God be a good motivation? If I were being helped by someone who was only helping me because they were trying to get eternal life from Jesus I would not feel loved.
Again, for the umpteenth time, I dont discuss what I personally do on the internet with people I dont know. Neither do I ever ask others what they do regarding good works. So your questions to me about what I do and why I do it, will remain unanswered. You are out of place.
Moving on, I will tell you that peoples motives will be judged by Christ. So thats ...[text shortened]... want the references. I would also like to see some supporting references for your conclusions.
I think you have sidestepped the question because you know if you talk about these things you will end up on a sticky wicket. I don't doubt that you might well do many good things for God and I would not seek to disparage you in any way. The faith needs people like you to keep Christians focused on their obligation to their community and to loving and helping people. However , you mustn't take this idea too far and deny other truths. It's a mistake to elevate one idea (eg works are important) above all other theology and scripture.
These are really important questions. No-one wants you to talk about your personal life but we do need to have an adult conversation about motivation. Or do you not think that God is bothered about getting our hearts right with Him? Do you think that even 1 billion good works will make you holy enough to be acceptable to God in all His holy glory? Only the Son can do that for you.
I agree with you that no-one "has" salvation now , but the Bible is quite clear that God's intentions were that we would feel assurance about salvation. We are not to live in fear.
"And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him" 1 John 3:19
"The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us the inheritance he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him. " Ephesians 1:14
Originally posted by Rajk999It's possible for someone to do loads of good works but still not love people. If the people one helps merely become ticks in a box in order to score points to "get" eternal life then it's not of God. God calls us to be compassionate lovers of people.
You find good works offensive for some reason ?
If we have not love then it means nothing and it doesn't mean anything to God.
"And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing" 1 Corinthians 13:3
So the question is how can we get that love for others in our hearts?
"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh".Ezekiel 36:26
God says he will put a new Spirit in his people. Ever wondered how He planned to do this?
BTW- What exactly do you think the role of the Holy Spirit is? I mean what's He for? I'd love to know.
Originally posted by knightmeisterI am not elevating anything. Christ is the law and the judge.
Could you not at least talk hypothetically about what might be a good motivation for doing good works? Would love born as a result of being loved by God be a good motivation? If I were being helped by someone who was only helping me because they were trying to get eternal life from Jesus I would not feel loved.
I think you have sidestepped the ques ...[text shortened]... o be his own people. He did this so we would praise and glorify him. " Ephesians 1:14
You need to read His words and follow His commandments to get eternal life.
The words of the Apostles are also important.
ALL of them said FAITH + WORKS is the road to salvation.
NOT FAITH ALONE. NOT WORKS ALONE.
Christ said he will separate the sheep from the goats.
The sheep did the good works and will get eternal life.
The goats did not do good works and will get damnation.
Read your Bible.
Originally posted by Rajk999If you can show me one place where I said that I'll admit I'm wrong. If you
You find good works offensive for some reason ?
cannot I believe you are twisting my words for the EVIL purpose to charge me
with something I have not done which would make you a liar. I'd also put this
to you, where do liars go on judment day, who is the father of those?
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayI asked a question. I made no statement.
If you can show me one place where I said that I'll admit I'm wrong. If you
cannot I believe you are twisting my words for the EVIL purpose to charge me
with something I have not done which would make you a liar. I'd also put this
to you, where do liars go on judment day, who is the father of those?
Kelly
You have constantly implied that good works are of no value.
Christ said the complete opposite.
You cannot have a 'relationship with Christ' or like in your case 'boast of a relationship with Christ' with one mouth and then with the other you deny Christs teachings and commandments. You are a hypocrite like many of the so-called Christians out there.
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Originally posted by Rajk999And yet YOU come in here like Jesus to the moneychangers, assuming things you have NO idea about, all full of bile and reproof for things which hardly amount to what should be important to most Christians. You obviously put yourself above the "average" Christian whom you deride. How does that show "love for your fellow Christians"? You say we should follow Christ, and yet you do not do so yourself. At least the "voice in the wilderness" John the Baptist actually walked his talk. You stand here full of noise about nothing. Christ is all about one's personal relationship with Him. He stands as the only bridge between sinful man and Holy God. If you were actually Christian (in deed as well as word), you'd see this, and not puff yourself up with pride, pointing out "the expression doesn't exist in the Bible". You play semantics with your salvation, sir. As God will judge us based on what is written on our hearts, so should we be guided by the spirit of the gospel teachings, and not merely the semantics thereof.
If you ask 10 Christians to describe their [b]'relationship with Jesus' they will give you 10 different answers. What most Christians dont know [like Kelly Jay and Suzainne] is that that expression does not exist in the Bible, but they will claim that it is the most important thing. Knightmeister gave a very vague explanation of what 'relationship with J he other way. That is the typical relationship that the typical Christian has with Christ.[/b]
I do acknowledge your main talking point, which is that we MUST help the more unfortunate members of our society, as this could be any of us. And that Christ said "as you have helped (or turned away) the least of them, so have you helped (or turned away) me." It directly follows from the Golden Rule, which is repeated many times in the Bible, in different forms, and stands as one of the better examples of how we can follow Christ in the here and now. Most of the Christians here do not boast of our good works. But there is always one, who stands up crowing about their good works while lambasting others for their presumed idleness. Clearly this is not Christian.
You also tend to extol the fear-mongering aspects of Christianity. People will not become Christian based on fear. But they will become Christian based on Love. I know this first hand. I read your posts and I see much fear, but not much Love. I do not just mean love for your fellow Christians, which seems non-existent while you shout them down, telling them their faith is not true. But I do not see much Love for your fellow man at all, Christian or not. Sure, you help your downtrodden, poor and hungry (I assume you do, anyways, since you boast of it), but what is your motivation? Is it Love, or is it only Fear? The typical relationship a Christian has with Christ is one of Love and not one of Fear. Is this why you do not understand what we mean by a "personal relationship with Christ"?
"And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." -- 1 Corinthians 13:3
Charity, meaning Love.
(I think all of 1 Corinthians 13 would be a solid reading recommendation for you.)
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Originally posted by Rajk999ALL of them said FAITH + WORKS is the road to salvation.
I am not elevating anything. Christ is the law and the judge.
You need to read His words and follow His commandments to get eternal life.
The words of the Apostles are also important.
ALL of them said FAITH + WORKS is the road to salvation.
NOT FAITH ALONE. NOT WORKS ALONE.
Christ said he will separate the sheep from the goats.
The sheep did the go ...[text shortened]... l get eternal life.
The goats did not do good works and will get damnation.
Read your Bible.
NOT FAITH ALONE. NOT WORKS ALONE.
---------------rajk------------------------
I'm sorry mate but this is just incorrect. The teaching in the new testament is clear. It is living faith that saves us via grace (ie a gift of God). The reason why faith is linked with works is in order to show that the faith is alive and not dead ("faith without works is dead" ) The works are PROOF of a living faith.
Here's a way of looking at it. If I am dying (IN SIN) in hospital and need a blood transfusion (SALVATION) then if I have the blood transfusion (FAITH + RECEIVING THE SPIRIT) and it works (I AM SAVED) then naturally I will get up and start doing things a few weeks later , maybe helping a few other patients with things (GOOD WORKS) that PROVE that the blood transfusion was real and effective.
But what was it that saved me? Was it walking around helping the other patients that did it? No! It was the transfusion that did the real work. The good works I did in the hospital were evidence that the transfusion had worked.
If you read carefully what it says in the Bible you will see that it talks about works as evidence of saving faith , but it does clearly proclaim that it is faith (as a gift of God) that saves not works. Faith is always stressed.
It is living faith alone that saves and not works. But even then it is not faith as such that actually saves us , it is the grace of God. Even in your model it is still the grace of God that saves you because even if you perform a great stack of good works Jesus could still tell you to depart from Him if he wanted to. He has the right to do this to any of us. It is only by his grace or favour that any of us have a chance anyway!
At the end of it all if God chooses not to save you then there's absolutely nothing you can do about it - that's why it has to always be grace that saves whichever way you look at it.
Can you present any reason at all why Almighty God could not choose to tell Rajk to depart from Him if He so wished? If you can't then your salvation is always going to be dependent on His grace and favour. There's no way round this.
Therefore the grace of God is always the final deciding factor in salvation whoever , whatever means , whatever theology. Could we at least agree on this? Because unless you think you can force God's hand and force Him to save you then you are always at His mercy.
Originally posted by Rajk999That is a lie, no where have I said they are of no value. I have maintained that
I asked a question. I made no statement.
You have constantly implied that good works are of no value.
Christ said the complete opposite.
You cannot have a 'relationship with Christ' or like in your case 'boast of a relationship with Christ' with one mouth and then with the other you deny Christs teachings and commandments. You are a hypocrite like many of the so-called Christians out there.
anyone can do good works.
Kelly
Originally posted by knightmeisterThe question assumes that someone has already got to the point where they feel that God exists but they want to try and figure out which religion to follow.
You missed the point. The question assumes that someone has already got to the point where they feel that God exists but they want to try and figure out which religion to follow.
Imagine you are at a party and 3 guests turn up all purporting to be "Jeff". You feel certain that Jeff exists as a person and that He is at the party. Then the Jeffs s ...[text shortened]... easonable argument. I don't base my "frequency tuning " just on this one position.
It's still circular reasoning. 'Christ is the one true God because Christ says so', how is that not circular reasoning?